What are our "best" + "worst" DPS cooldowns?

02/07/2013 05:24 PMPosted by Kiljagen
The 5.2 BF change will make it a bit harder to use in PvP, I think... but that's another topic.

Honestly I can't think of any reason KS would be a worse ability if it only hit one target. Sure, it looks kinda cool going from one to another, but come on. In PvP cleave damage is almost useless since you generally want to be focusing one target down, and thus a split damage KS is terrible (and setting it up so it only hits one target is more a pain in the !@# than an interesting optimization). In PvE you are usually ok with Blade Flurry in its current form, but on the off change that your targets split and/or one is much higher priority than the other, then you are in trouble. Not to mention if you happen to jump to a mob which has no floor under it. With the new version of BF hitting off targets with KS will be clearly worse in PvP, and less clearly worse in PvE. Consider the situation that you have 5 targets near you, all semi-clumped. You can hit the dude in the middle and hit the maximum amount of targets (4). Now you use KS and are jumping around, often attacking in places where you will no be able to get a cleave on as many targets. Fact is GC was right when he said Combat was too focused on multitarget fights for it to be good in PvP, and the multitarget part of KS is such that it is at best neutral in all situations.
02/07/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Haileaus
The 5.2 BF change will make it a bit harder to use in PvP, I think... but that's another topic.

Honestly I can't think of any reason KS would be a worse ability if it only hit one target.

I do agree with you on that. I would REALLY miss the jumpy-ness but once BF stopped being a cooldown there is just no reason to NOT (except when using near "break on dmg" cc) have BF turned on while Spreeing so you'll be cleaving anyway.
It's still a cooldown that I love but yeah... it's got problems.

I still rank my love of the rogue dps cooldowns in this order:
1. AR
2. SB
3. KS (if it didn't have it's problems it'd be #2)
4. SD (If I didn't suck at doing it it'd probably be #2)
5. Ve
Ok but seriously now.

Shadow Dance: I think this should be the gold standard for CDs. It requires thought regarding when it should be used, offers a noticeable change in the rotation in the form of more CP and bigger numbers, and, for PvP, offers high skill-cap utility. Getting the most out of ShD requires timing and skill in a way that other CDs do not. That isn't to say it doesn't have issues, but most of the ones I've heard are with subtlety as a whole.

Adrenaline Rush: This is a good CD. It doesn't change the rotation in the way that ShD does, but I like the minigame of having to not cap my energy. There is one thing though...+20% attack speed? Nobody cares about it. If you removed that part of Ancitipation and buffed, say Sinister Strike to compensate, I doubt anyone would mind. Sure, attack speed is mad good as Combat, but it is *so* uninteresting. Still the energy portion is enough to make this one of my favorite CDs to pop.

Killing Spree: This is pretty close to Adrenaline Rush in terms of fun. Actually, it is way way way funner than AR in a PvP setting if I successfully use it against just one target. If I end up getting two targets in PvP I hate it. Lots. Like, it gets me pretty annoyed. Inconsistency in a major CD is a good reason not to play a spec in PvP. PvE you can generally remove that inconsistency, and I like the pause and what not. Would be nice if it was better to save it for Max Insight though.

Shadow Blades: It's...ok. As some of my fellow posters said it feels *very* out of place in Subtlety. We gotta deal with ShD and Vanish, both on pretty short CDs, and not overlap them with SB - a feat which requires waiting over a min to use the first ShB if you have the 4-pc, thus being maybe not optimal for the first use? For Combat and Assassination, you just bind it to your other major CD, and/or use it on cooldown, which is...ok, I guess, but not ideal.
"But Hail," you might say, "You first complained you couldn't overlap it with CDs, and then you said overlapping isn't ideal! WTF do you want?" To that I say, "Good question! CDs should make playing more interesting for their duration, and having that increased interestingness spread out more is better than clustering it (Consider SB during ShD - Ambush already generates 2x more CP than BS, one extra isn't that cool in comparison when it could be later). The problem I mentioned with Sub is specific to the spec. Sub rogues have ShD giving 18 secs of FW per min, and Vanish giving 13 every 2 mins. That means 40% of the fight you can't use another CD without reducing the benefit of FW and losing DPS. The fact that you start out the fight with all CDs up only exacerbates this problem. If FW lasted only 5 secs, this would not be an issue, and sub would be the best spec for SB.
"But wait, there's more. You see, there's another better way for SB to have synergy with sub: Make it an interesting cooldown. The autoattack portion if stupid. Nobody notices autoattack damage. 100% armor penetration is a great an significant damage increase, but it is wasted on autoattacks. SB's autattack component should straight up be removed. Replace it with something active. If I have to combine SB with ShD, then so be it. I'll be happy I am not keeping it on CD for a long time.

Vendetta is stupid and useless and dumb.

Shadow Dance
Adrenaline Rush
Killing Spree
Shadow Blades
PvP I love Vendetta, I'm a Mut rogue for life it's been the most comforting thing since momma's breasts.

I feel that even the added effect is hilarious especially when the stealthy doesn't know I cast it on them (for the opener). I wish it persist through vanish but that's a different debate. It scales multiplicatively when used with shadow blades (all of your damage is like 100% Find Weakness) and opening with vendetta/cheap/shadow blades makes short work of nearly every opponent I come across especially teamed up with Paralytic Poison (8sec if it doesn't clip cheap). The uptime on that combo is insane and you'll get a /clap from all the onlookers when that warrior that's been wrecking ppl outside stormwind for the past 3 hours goes down in 10 seconds for the first time all night.

Arena settings are different, control for your partner is a little more important ONLY because as sub you use all your tools every match and have high use per arena resets. ONLY for that reason is shadow dance a little better. In Bg's sub is subpar by a country mile you just don't have enough time for all your fancy tricks to work until some of their friends come to help to be useful. Using shadow dance in randoms or RBG's is pure frustration EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ALL HAVE GLADIATOR AUDIBLE!!!! Get a clue ppl 1 CC and you're gimped for another minute I'll take sustained damage output of Mut anyday and Vendetta's debuff timer is awesome you will get some facetime on each Vendetta use I guarantee it. I never feel I need Vendetta as Mut Sub I feel I need Shadow Dance every encounter.

Mark my words 5.2 Mut rogues will earn a spot in RBG's because ranged Vendetta/ST will coincide WAAAY more than a 5 sec shadow dance. Kiting healers will feel huge pressure even when off target and 20 sec vendetta will outlast 3 back to back CC's by 5 seconds. I don't have to mention no positional requirements for it to be a burst CD do I? Anywho I'm off my rant of everyone thinking Vendetta is weaksauce 5.2 is the shining of Mut again.

Pve it's a huge DPS increase especially glyphed it has the most uptime of any of the 3 specs and especially when you can open with it plus use it on burn phases it has great timing (sometimes you can get 3 out of an encounter).

Shdow Dance
insert combat stuff here (pvp standpoint)
02/08/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Sixxysix
the most comforting thing since momma's breasts.
Stopped reading here.

aww man you know you'd like to go back there ti's so WARM and COMFY!!!! Wait your name has troll in it nvm your momma abandoned you at lvl 10......
More like weaned at lvl 10.
It's a good place don't hate on Momma.
aaaaaand thread is dead.
I want mah momma
PvP I love Vendetta[...]

I'm hearing a lot about mutilate as a whole, but what I'm wondering is if you like that Vendetta is a flat damage increase rather than something more interesting. For instance if it had the same CD and damage increase but went about it in a more active way. Or do you like that it's just a big "you deal more damage" ability?
From a pvp perspective I like KS shadow blades and shadow dance they feel rewarding and powerful when used right. The others not so much.
Sorry Hail I I got off topic i was on the sauce last night apologies. To the point:

Vendetta lacks aesthetics, it comes up short in the audio/visual department. I actually like it that way, I don't want my opponent to know I'm winding up. I mained a HPal back in BC and Blessing of Protection used to be a very subdued visual just a really low key bubble around the player then they changed it to to a huge white crown advertisement that screams "CC me or switch targets". I'm not much on putting a dress on a pig in that aspect especially for PvP I'm rather glad rogues stay low key.

It does also lack depth as it has no "feel" while you're under it's effects which is probably why most people don't like it. It's very basic and has no bling but I'll take a flat damage increase for that long of a duration any day.

It would be awesome if it allowed "unerring vision" of your target and added a mechanic like a Hunter's Bestial Wrath for his pet where you feel no pity or remorse and cannot be feared blah blah blah until your target is dead or you are dead (or the effect expires lol) I think that fits someone having a "Vendetta" against someone.
I dislike vendetta because it has nothing interesting about it. The flat damage bonuses doesn't do anything interesting to the rotation, it has no interesting visual and the utility effect of stopping stealth isn't really useful.

I like shadow dance the best, as it lets you use our stealth abilities frequently, it feels very rogue as it has both utility and burst all without an explicit effect. It can be whatever utility our stealth abilities allow and you can mix and match it with our burst.

I don't like find weakness. It is something to optimize and that can be sorta fun, but I dislike the way to turns vanish into a dps cooldown. I'd rather ambush/garrote were hard hitting abilities in their own right without another UI element to track. Assassination doesn't even open with ambush and that is just wrong.

AR is fine, it speeds up the rotation and makes it feel like you are pumping out some hurt instead of buffing numbers that you would need a damage meter to tell if it were working. I'm not a big fan of "slightly higher numbers" flying across the screen. Something needs to be visceral to be fun for me, not just mathematically superior. That means keyed up visuals, or something to differentiate the rotation.

Visuals can be as simple as crit text, although I don't pay attention to the combat text that much, I know a lot of players do. Preferably a good cooldowm has both good visuals and and interesting mechanic.

I'm not proposing a change here, just demonstrating what I mean. But if vendetta simply allowed the use of dispatch above 35% and allowed dispatch a 50% chance to proc blindside for the duration of vendetta, we got both elements. Something to do different, even a little more randomness, and a visual to back it up through faster blindside spell alerts. Or even something as simple as all dispatches are crits for the duration.

Shadow Blades is fun, and its certainly more fun than vendetta. I don't think we really needed another dps cooldown, but it is nice to have another cooldown to rotate though. It feels like bloat to me, but that's because I feel that we have to many abilities in our spellbook but this is a gamewide problem.

I love killing spree. I like the "skill shot" aspect of it where you have to think about when you use it so that you waste it. Like isolating an opponent so you can single target it, or use it as aoe with bladeflurry. I dislike that it can kill you on many encounters. But in a way that adds to its flavor, and makes it mindful. Would be nice to atleast be rezzable afterwards though.
Sorry Hail I I got off topic i was on the sauce last night apologies.
You're a surprisingly articulate drunk :P

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