New Seal of Justice change

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02/10/2013 02:02 PMPosted by Paladinww
Ran with a frost mage worked fine but he quit after frost bomb nerf.

He sounds like a winner :). I run with a warlock and it's frustrating that they don't have a snare (demo at least), as we can both get kited pretty frequently. The probablem is if I get the snare, I lose a lot of CC either with twice as many stuns via FoJ or the CC via Repentance. It's good that it's a tradeoff, but it's frustrating.

I don't think we are going to get a baseline snare, it will always be a tradeoff for us and I'm fine with that. Blizz will always say freedom is a movement increase in a way, but it's dispellable. I would settle for a bit better passive mitigation. Ret is still fairly easy to train down. Not sure SoI really does the trick there. Maybe if Glyph of the Battle Healer could heal the paladin too?
02/10/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Varaben
I don't think we are going to get a baseline snare

It's not a question of getting one, we already have one. We just have to not lose it for no good reason.
02/09/2013 07:27 PMPosted by Mavericace
I think most decent Ret comps will have a DK/war/rogue/monk/mage/feral/hunter/lock/shaman/priest in it to do the snaring

Maybe. But then, what difference it would make if SoJ also snares the target? None, right?

But if you arent playing with a class that cant/wont snare (because they can rely on some class that can do it with rotational abilities - like us, now) or if you caught the fc by yourself in a random BG? Yeah..

This can also make SoJ even more PvP oriented, because lets face it, do you really think that this change is going to make SoJ more used than SoT in PvP again (considering that it isnt; I ran with SoJ all the time in BGs and 2s with my warlock friend)? It doesnt do more damage than SoT, nor is a sustained damage buff (which was the main complain from rets); and if people didnt choose SoJ before WITH the snare and with a sustained damage buff, without it I doubt the numbers are going to climb as much as GC wants really.
I don't think anyone here is saying that we wouldn't love for SoJ to keep the snare just that if it losses the snare its not a huge loss.

All this talk of peeling well we might not have the baseline snare but you can still take BoG if you feel like you just HAVE to have it. Also we still have freedom, if you want to play with a caster just use a HoP on him if he is getting beat down plus with the new HoS you will take some of his damage and cleanse him at the same time. All of that isn't taking into consideration like said above you can still stun, blind or heal if need to help a partner out for a bit.

With all of that said lets be honest if your playing in arena you more than likely wont need to peel anything anyway since once the doors open and the other team sees a ret they just say "OMG free kill train the ret to death". If we actually get some more survivability maybe then we can start talking about having to peel people until then I am more worried about people peeling for me lol.

For now Blizzard has this mindset that they want to make talents a "interesting" choice so if you want the snare take BoG and live with the long cd on hammer. I know most people like myself wont care about the snare and just rely on partners and LaotL to help me catch up with people.

I wouldn't be trying to get too greedy right now, people are talking about how they want to be viable in all these different arena comps, well at this point I would be happy if there were one or two good comps where ret fit in cause this season we have Vanguards cleave and thats not even that great compared to most of the other classes comps.

If the damage of SoJ is high enough to scare some people outside of my CDs then its going to be far far better than what I am using now cause SoT does jack crap for damage if your CDs are down.
The problem I have with the new Justice is that the stacks exhaust after TV use. So that means if you want to use a 5 stack TV again you will probably have to build more than 3 holy powers to use it.
New change is poorly thought out. Insulting to go BACKWARDS to being the only class without a snare again. Meanwhile DK's get half the cooldown off of Silence and their dark Fist of Justice move. I have to go from 30s to a MINUTE just so I can snare ONE person every 5 or so seconds. Amaaaaaaaazing that anyone in that office even SUGGESTED removing the snare on SoJ.

In PvE it would change nothing, the new SoJ is not fully intended for pve and snares don't work.
In PvP it would change only qol for the solo Paladin, since EVERY OTHER CLASS has baseline snares still.
In Talent Trees, we now don't have a choice. ANOTHER branch of our tree has been nailed down permanently.

This is garbage nonsense changing. I think it was perfectly fine to swap between seals if you needed a snare for less damage, but it's bullcrap to just take the snare away. I'd rather choose between a small boost in dmg from the Seal swap then choose between 30s to 1m Stun cooldown just to get my snare back.

Not to mention there goes snaring large groups in BG's, the most peeling I've done as a Ret Paladin in 8 years.

Thanks Blizzard for the nerf in fun / interactive / functional melee style play on my RET paladin. Give me some more heals and magical spells please, I hate my giant 2h weapon and using it on people.
If you (Blizzard Developers) want SoJ to be a seal rets actually use, then suggest five possible changes to the seal to high-end players (PvP and/or PvE, because it is admissible -- and even opens doors of possibilities -- that a particular seal is useful in only one situation but not the other) and ask them which makes the most sense, which they like best, which has utility in the current spec build, and, most importantly, which they'd routinely employ.

This is an advisable paradigm to adopt with fixing rets in other arenas as well.

If this is what you've done, then I humbly submit that you're talking to the wrong players.

Having PvE'd with a top 20 US raiding guild, I can say that no other ret on the guild's roster (there aren't many, since rets are just a bit more loved in PvE than PvP), nor I, would ever use a seal that forces us to hold our TV or limit HP use. We aren't going to lose more damage by using HP on anything lesser. We're not to heal or apply Inq when we don't need to. We're going to use the seal that gives the most damage done over the duration of the fight. Boss or end-game fights are where it's at. Big hits mean nothing to a boss.

So, a seal that gives less damage than SoT is pretty worthless.

In PvP, having played past 2400 in RBG's, I submit that looking at the damage of the ret is not looking in the right place to fix them. I'm not denied a spot on an RBG team because my of my damage.

It is true that rets don't top damage charts, but that's more because we're not dotting up everyone or spreading diseases (though in fact in PvE in certain situations like Blade Lord, target switching with SoT to dot up all the adds can work to increase dps better than the current SoR). We have plenty of single target damage and that kills players. I routinely break 10 million damage in an RBG against geared players, and while that's not a lot compared to other classes, it's often the killing blow needed.

IF, and it's a big if, seal switching were instant and off the GCD, then it may be another story. I strongly advise this regardless of any other changes in the works.

Indeed, one of the few strengths of the ret in PvP is in doing that extra damage, and fast, to down an opponent. If I can quickly build 5 stacks, or even better use 5 HP to instantly apply 5 stacks to an opponent (like a rogue might transfer combo points to another target) and then get a free (proc'ed) and powerful TV, then I'm game. It's a lot of button pushing, but I'd probably use it in certain situations if the TV hit were big enough.

Basically, you would allow the TV of SoJ to use ALL FIVE HP, assuming the ret had five there, instead of 3 maximum. That would deliver quite a bit of justice, tough justice, to a player.

I suppose that if a ret used SoJ for longer than a quick and deadly switch, he might once in a while get two powerful TV, one after the other, by first building 5 stacks on an enemy but withholding the proc'ed TV, and then building 5 more HP, with the stacks and the HP each giving a deadly TV. With Divine Purpose, s/he might get a third 5 HP TV fairly soon after. GG

Again, to a boss, it's not relevant if the overall damage done is less.

But the whole direction of fixing its damage is a bit concerning when we already have SoT in our toolbox. I personally found a few situations to use SoJ in arena, especially to provide some peels to a teammate in a bad 2's comp (as opposed to the nonexistent viable 2's comp that includes rets), despite it being on the GCD. Now, I don't see me using it at all. The ret-only seal is going the way of the ret in PvP altogether -- unused.

I quit the game for a year because I was so tired of the failures in building the ret. I only play ret. I recently returned and have now tried holy but it doesn't suit my personality.

I have a lot more perspective to offer, as I really want the ret to be viable in PvE and PvP. So I hope someone in Development reads this, as I may have some good ideas on how to fix the spec. I will be posting them elsewhere.

Thanks for taking the time.
this is finally working on PTR. an example of damage to a target dummy at Shrine with 5-stack of Justice (i also had inquisition up):

Justice - 32,837 noncrit
TV - 47,349 noncrit
Hand of Light - 16,299 noncrit

it pretty much builds back to 5-stacks by the time you have 3 holy charges again.

He must be getting his facts from terrible players...[/b]

I'm more confused about where GC got the idea that Seal twisting/weaving would be annoying.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, which I sincerely doubt, Paladins (especially Protection) have been complaining about their class becoming boring and Warrior wannabes ever since Sealweaving was removed.

That said though, I do completely agree with the new change to SoJ. This isn't Vanilla, BC or Wrath where Retribution desperately needs a gap closer. Long Arm of the Law + Burden of Guilt is a very lethal combination that makes the old SoJ more or less obsolete.
02/14/2013 07:49 PMPosted by Kraniel
it pretty much builds back to 5-stacks by the time you have 3 holy charges again.

Typically it's at 4-5 stacks again, yes. However it deals zero damage when using something other than TV.

That's the achilles heel of SoJ on the ptr. It winds up being massively less effective for pressure when needing to do something like refresh Inq or heal with WoG.
Looks like Blizzard realized their experiment with SoJ wasn't working very well.

However, good news everyone!

- We're worried that we're not going to be able to get the new Seal of Justice on PTR in a good place. We still like the goal of giving Ret more damage outside of their long cooldowns, but Censure just brings a lot of benefits that are going to be hard to reproduce in any kind of "build up to burst" mechanic. When faced with decisions like these where the new design isn't a clear win, we think the right decision is to revert the change. It's possible we could buff Seal of Justice (the 5.1 version) to 20% damage from 16% damage, but overall it would still probably not get much use in PvP.

- However, we haven't given up on the idea of solving Ret's problems of long cooldowns. We are going to try changing the 4pc PvP set bonus to lowering the cooldown on Avenging Wrath by 1 min. This is a set bonus that has worked out pretty well in PvE and would help Ret keep up pressure more frequently without getting to the point of one-shot abilities.

Makes you kinda wonder why they don't just make AW 2 minutes baseline, but this'll be pretty sweet.
I would be fine with losing the snare of the new SoJ actually did damage per hit instead of buffing an attack i MIGHT get off later. Currently, truth does 12% + dot damage, and the current justice does 16%. Both are on every "melee" attack. a 25% per swing tacked onto an attack i might get off before stacks fall doesnt sound worth it.

If stacks arent consumed, it might be worth it, because then you wouldnt worry about saving HP to wait on stacks for TV, or wasting stacks.

EDIT: Did not see they reverted it. Good.
02/08/2013 08:02 PMPosted by Topples
Anybody else think they totally took a step backwards by removing the snare from SoJ?
No. The snare was unreliable and a damage loss.

EDIT: Well good job, you guys managed to force us back into Truth.
Anybody else think they totally took a step backwards by removing the snare from SoJ?
No. The snare was unreliable and a damage loss.

EDIT: Well good job, you guys managed to force us back into Truth.

With a damage buff, SoJ might just be almost as good as Truth in terms of damage.

If they do buff it to 20% instead of completely redesign it, it will deal 26% weapon damage per hit, which is nothing to scoff at. (Compared to SoT's 15.6% damage per hit with Inquisition.)
Nobody forced anything, when Blizzard realized that the positive feedback was actually hopeful anticipation because the seal wasn't on the PTR, and when it was, it was completely nonfunctional for a week and then dispellable this week, all that "positive" feedback changed tone pretty fast.

Maybe if they had it working properly before putting it on the test realms, there would have been actual positive feedback. But it was still a big damage loss compared to truth.
I don't think it would have ever functioned properly as long as it was tied to TV. The damage when not TVing would have been pathetic, and not made up for at 25% weapon damage.
It could function properly. If they had started from a point where they said they were going to make it. They didn't make it physical or stack properly, and while they removed the snare it was still flagged as a movement impairing effect... healers could dispell it, hand of freedom made people immune to it and it was a flat damage. It couldn't crit, which is a huge HUGE downer.

How is anyone supposed to give positive feedback on that?

Even fully functional, it would literally have been a TfB, which wasn't wanted or needed. Our primary strikes are already two hits making them seem a lot smaller than they are.
02/08/2013 08:02 PMPosted by Topples
Furthermore, just buffing Justice's damage risks Seal twisting in PvE becoming a thing, where you stack up Censure and then swap to Justice. It could be cool if designed right, but would probably just be annoying.

So taking time to build up power(censure) and then pressing a button(to change seal) while keeping an eye on a timer until you have to refresh said power is something Blizz doesn't want because it would "probably just be annoying"...

That's because it would be annoying. We know this because that is EXACTLY what goes into casting and maintaining Inquisition.

I also don't understand Blizz's issue with seal twisting since that is EXACTLY what we have to do every time we suddenly have to switch between single target and AoE.

You've already made seal twisting "a thing", you might as well embrace it. Just do us the favor of removing seals from the GCD.

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