Why Shouldn't the Alliance Surrender?

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02/12/2013 05:05 PMPosted by Kynrind
I maintain that the Alliance was far less harsh in it's 'slavery' than the horde has been.

I don't know, the Alliance has a pretty bad track record when it comes to taking Horde prisoners.

There's the rampant abuse in the internment camps, obviously, but it doesn't stop there. After the Orcs of Honor's Stand surrendered, they were routinely beaten, and speaking up against the abuse got one prisoner kicked blind. In MoP, the Alliance outright refuses to take prisoners, instead favouring a kill 'em all approach.

Top that off with the fact we know that Terenas employed torturers and that the Kirin Tor condones it as well, and it doesn't paint a very flattering picture of imprisonment under Alliance watch (not that prison life is supposed to be puppies and rainbows).

Garrosh actually has a better record than the Alliance does when it comes to handling surrendering (or deserting) members of the opposite faction.

Edit: Also, be careful touting stuff from the RPGs as fact.
02/12/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Kellick
There's the rampant abuse in the internment camps, obviously, but it doesn't stop there. After the Orcs of Honor's Stand surrendered, they were routinely beaten, and speaking up against the abuse got one prisoner kicked blind. In MoP, the Alliance outright refuses to take prisoners, instead favouring a kill 'em all approach.


If by rampant abuse you mean widespread apathy, sure. Most of the orcs were left to sit in their camps, and were content to sit in their camps. One used them as personal servants. One orc was used as slave labour. Some were definitely used to build things, amongst them the statue of Lothar, but I cannot really see why this would be considered a terrible thing.

True on your points about Honor's Stand.

In MoP, they did indeed practice a 'kill them all' approach, but no surrender was asked for.

02/12/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Kellick
Top that off with the fact we know that Terenas employed torturers and that the Kirin Tor condones it as well, and it doesn't paint a very flattering picture of imprisonment under Alliance watch (not that prison life is supposed to be puppies and rainbows).


True. Don't really care, but true. We've still seen far worse from orcs, trolls and Forsaken. And a Blood Elf, if memory serves.

Garrosh actually has a better record than the Alliance does when it comes to handling surrendering (or deserting) members of the opposite faction.


Taken superficially, you are indeed correct.
I think we should probably let races with better track records handle the care of prisoners on both factions.
There's not going to be any sort of real peace without respect. What do orcs respect? They respect strength and violence. Even assuming Garrosh accepted a surrender with only relatively minor concessions on the Alliance's part, like say, Ashenvale, the Alliance is automatically the personal punching bag of every orc in the Horde. They're vindicated. They know their enemy is weak, and gives up, so why not push harder? Win more with the next war. They're not the type of culture that sees war and violence as a bad thing, and with an easy opponent? They're milking that till there's nothing left to milk.

Garrosh's Horde doesn't just want stuff now. We're passed that point. He and his followers want to feel like they -won- that total victory. If the Alliance surrendered, and even offered to join the Horde there's no guarantee that Garrosh wouldn't just flip the hell out and try to kill them all anyway because he was robbed his victory and the whole war seems petty and pointless now that the other side wants to hold hands and sing. At the very least, when you look at the mode of 'respect' in the Horde, the defeated Alliance races would be an underclass at best. Garrosh wanted very much to humble the Night Elves, force them to beg and starve.

There's a few more reasons on the Alliance end why it would be an awful idea. Firstly, the offer of surrender of any sort would cause morale the shoot itself in the head while standing at the edge of a cliff (if the war wasn't lost already, that would help out quite a bit). Second, the Horde sucks at resource management, and submitting all your lands to it seems to be a sure way to get them all stripped and left barren. Third, the Horde is an absolute dictatorship born on a different planet (that it destroyed through mismanagement), and the races and nations of the Alliance ought to have the right to defy it when it -wants their stuff-.
Liberate me! Then leave forever.
Because the Alliance isn't losing.
And everyone in the Horde loves living in the Horde.


The Trolls, Blood Elves , Sylvanas and probably by this point, some Tauren disagree.


They might not like Garrosh, but they all love the Horde.

02/12/2013 05:57 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Because the Alliance isn't losing.


It is losing thousands of people and millions in treasure just to fight this war. And for what?
02/12/2013 05:41 PMPosted by Arkturas
If by rampant abuse you mean widespread apathy, sure.

I... don't see how the lethargy somehow means the abuse isn't abuse.
02/12/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Kellick
I don't know, the Alliance has a pretty bad track record when it comes to taking Horde prisoners.


Stonetalon mountains quest where you arbitrarily kill Night elf prisoners because, why not?

Then there's the prisoners the Forsaken take in 2 different instances, forcing them to drink concoctions in order to kill them.

And of course we know the Orcs do practice slavery and practically condone it. These slaves can include anyone from their own races to those of the Alliance.

But then, the Horde have also taken a "take no prisoners" approach for quite a while now as well. So it's a good thing that the Alliance isn't treating the Horde races with that sort of kindness.
I... don't see how the lethargy somehow means the abuse isn't abuse.


As I said, if you mean abuse as in largely ignoring them beyond seeing to their basic needs as abuse, then you have a point. A supremely entitled point, but a point.

I am telling you to define what you mean by abuse. Do you mean physical torment? Forced labour? Not caring what happened to the orcs and just leaving them alone while feeding them?

The treatment of the orcs was a spectrum of the above. Most fell into the latter camp. Some fell into the first two.

If you want to present that any action beyond actually succeeding at fixing the orcs was abuse, I will tell you that you're off your rocker.
02/12/2013 06:12 PMPosted by Arkturas
As I said, if you mean abuse as in largely ignoring them beyond seeing to their basic needs as abuse, then you have a point.

Only that's... not what was going on. We've records of beatings, pit fights, the whole shebang, so if you're claiming the only thing that was going on was not caring, you're either lying through your teeth or in desperate need of reading lessons.

So if we're talking about people being off their respective rockers, you may want to reexamine your own position.
Only that's... not what was going on. We've records of beatings, pit fights, the whole shebang, so if you're claiming the only thing that was going on was not caring, you're either lying through your teeth or in desperate need of reading lessons.

So if we're talking about people being off their respective rockers, you may want to reexamine your own position.


You might want to reread that post and not cherry pick.

I am telling you to define what you mean by abuse. Do you mean physical torment? Forced labour? Not caring what happened to the orcs and just leaving them alone while feeding them?

The treatment of the orcs was a spectrum of the above. Most fell into the latter camp. Some fell into the first two.


02/12/2013 05:41 PMPosted by Arkturas
One used them as personal servants.
For example.

There were many cases where orcs as slaves/labour/physically abused/etc.

They are, to the best of my knowledge, minorities.

So I once again ask you to define the parameters of what you are considering abuse, and where it occurred.
I will never agree to peace with the horde and allaince. Because if there was then I would need to unsubscribe because there would be little conflict.
02/12/2013 06:22 PMPosted by Kellick
Only that's... not what was going on. We've records of beatings, pit fights, the whole shebang,


The beatings were illegal in the Alliance military and the Orcs acknowledge this.

We have Thrall as an example of a pit fighter and that's from the strange Warcraft 3 years where the Humans were all complete jerks and the Orcs were misunderstood angels.

Only that's... not what was going on. We've records of beatings, pit fights, the whole shebang, so if you're claiming the only thing that was going on was not caring, you're either lying through your teeth or in desperate need of reading lessons.

So if we're talking about people being off their respective rockers, you may want to reexamine your own position.


There's also the orc questgiver who is deaf and says it's because in the internment camp he complained about the mistreatment of another prisoner and the guards beat him until he lost his hearing.
I have no idea. I expect you alliance to surrender soon!
Why should the Alliance surrender? The Horde is falling apart, the trolls and blood elves are extremely mad at Garrosh, and Varian knows it.

Why surrender to such a weak enemy?
Only that's... not what was going on. We've records of beatings, pit fights, the whole shebang, so if you're claiming the only thing that was going on was not caring, you're either lying through your teeth or in desperate need of reading lessons.

So if we're talking about people being off their respective rockers, you may want to reexamine your own position.


There's also the orc questgiver who is deaf and says it's because in the internment camp he complained about the mistreatment of another prisoner and the guards beat him until he lost his hearing.


i thought he was blind not deaf. he got kicked in the head a bit too much and lost one of his primary senses. either way it sucks to be t hat orc.

also i remember there are a few orcs in the new hillsbrad with mental problems that prevent them from disconnecting their prison ball n' chains , and have a forsaken psychologist treating them. it is a flavor/world event kind of thing.
02/12/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Kellick
In MoP, the Alliance outright refuses to take prisoners, instead favouring a kill 'em all approach.


The Alliance did take prisoners in MoP, and it ended with a riot and the destruction of a helicarrier.

If you're talking about the Orc Marines, then I don't know what to tell you, other than it'd be idiotic to try and imprison a hostile force which isn't surrendering.
02/12/2013 09:10 PMPosted by Turagent
In MoP, the Alliance outright refuses to take prisoners, instead favouring a kill 'em all approach.

The Alliance did take prisoners in MoP, and it ended with a riot and the destruction of a helicarrier.

If you're talking about the Orc Marines, then I don't know what to tell you, other than it'd be idiotic to try and imprison a hostile force which isn't surrendering.


they werent not surrendering either, they were swimming to shore.

most humans in real life cant swim in against a rip tide, most humans cant swim with cotton clothing on. like blue jeans will kill most people if they jump in a pool or deep water source with them on.

orcs are different but still swimming to shore is not an agressive act, and running up a beach gets harder every step as you get into softer sand.

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