Thoughts about PVP!

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5.2 looks like it has taken a pretty streamlined approach into a more balanced game, but outlying factors still plague endgame PvP.

Gear, of course, being the most prominent.

Truthfully, I was applauding such a bold move on Blizzard's part to finally put a hypothetical end to the monumental grind to get gear, but seeing that it won't be here in 5.2 for the new season is just a huge letdown. Presumably, it will be here in 5.3, which, if it follows suit with MoP's patch release pace, will be in the middle of S13. It sounds awfully sloppy.

This new gearing system is one of the rare things in WoW that no one suffers from. No elitist is getting angry because his fresh 90 can gear up in a weekend by grinding out 100-150 games instead of slaving 10-15 weeks of relentlessly getting the minimum cap before having fun. A casual PvE'er who wants to dabble in PvP can do games at his/her leisure and get rewarded for the time put in, instead of being halted by a rigid cap.

My two cents, anyway. Arena Junkies' threads are praising this change heavily, and that community is hard to please.
How comfortable are the devs with the amount of addons people "need" just to PvP? Are they even comfortable with how some of the addons track the opposing players CD's?

There was a time when PvP meant you had to mentally keep in mind what the other person's doing/done while taking them on. PvP nowadays is more about reacting to what the addons are telling you then what the other player is doing.
02/13/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It is a situation that we'd like to address. It's just not as easy or straightforward as it seems, but like I said, we have stuff on the table.


I had my own idea about something that might help a little.

I don't know how difficult it would be to implement or even how much it would help. but a vague grouping system based on / wins vs loss / Gear / and maybe # of BGs played.

Lets say it puts you into one of three groups. For example beginner, intermediate, advanced.

If a player is in the beginner bracket it will try to group them with other beginners. If there aren't enough beginners it will look to the next tier. If still not enough, the last tier.

Same for someone at Intermediate, look for more of the same. If there isn't enough pull from the other groups.

I know its not perfect, but at least it would make the teams more even with same level and experienced players.
How comfortable are the devs with the amount of addons people "need" just to PvP? Are they even comfortable with how some of the addons track the opposing players CD's?

There was a time when PvP meant you had to mentally keep in mind what the other person's doing/done while taking them on. PvP nowadays is more about reacting to what the addons are telling you then what the other player is doing.


Good pvpers don't require those addons and they are banned from tournaments anyways so it is better to play without them. If i recall all addons are banned from tournaments.
wait gear doesnt affect low level bgs? oh okay BoAs dont make you OP or anything
I agree with the OP. The gear grind of PvE in an mmorpg is fine. It follows the tried and true method of advancing your character. But to extend this to PvP where the rules are different, the goals are different makes little sense to me.

The need to advance gear in PvE makes sense because scripted encounters are more advanced and more demanding. But in a PvP environment the need to advance with gear is not needed. The need to advance with skill and team play far out weighs the need for gear.

However, it appears that Blizzard has deemed both to follow the PvE rule set claiming the rpg aspect of the game. IMO this is making PvP less and less player friendly. I believe this way of thinking from the Developers is detrimental to the game.

But as many will continue to say that it is an rpg game so play by the rules, or I want to advance my toon via gear because I want to have every advantage I can (i.e. I get to glib the undergeared because it makes me look good and strokes my epeen).

I feel that if the developers want to keep this gear grind, then they MUST make the behind the scenes gear matching far better then it currently is. The undergear trashing is killing my interest int his game at all.
Heres my 2 cents, its something alot of people need to come to terms with.

why is there say 2300 KFC's and 2600 KFC's. They both have the same exact gear, they have both been playing since the season started, yet 1 team is 300 rating higher then the other.

this happens all the time, why is there 1800 shatter play teams and 2100 shatter play teams, they both have the exact gear?

its been like this since the dawn of time, gear eventually is a non issue, yet there are teams 100 200 300 400 500 etc points higher then other teams of the same comp and they have the same exact gear.

knowledge? skill? experience? Gear isnt everything, when you accept the idea that gear is everything you have already lost.
02/13/2013 04:06 PMPosted by Bomdanil
If that were true then you wouldn't be artificially deflating the stats of PvP gear to prevent it from being used to gain entry level access to PvE content, as you plan to do in the next patch.


I'm not sure that's the case. You can potentially wear the PvP gear into the PvE content and still perform at a decent level (though meeting the required item level might be an issue without some supplementals). Regardless, it's still okay for that purpose, but not the best and most obvious choice--which is what we intended.

it's simple, fair, and balanced. and it CAN'T be that hard to design.


It's hard to believe how time intensive it is to design arenas and battlegrounds. You can't just make a box and slap new textures on it. You also have to make sure it's perfect in a multitude of tiny ways that don't apply to any other content in the game, and are largely invisible. Does this texture cause people to hang up for no reason? Is there a chance that someone could fall through the world if a perfect storm of x+y+z occurs? Are there weird line of sight things here? How does this decorative feature interact with everyone's class abilities? Is it even fun to play on? The list goes on and on, and battlegrounds are even "worse". For example, Warsong Gulch suffered from issues for years. We'd fix something, and new issues would appear. At one point we even took it out of the rotation so we could work on it. Even now, I'd hesitate to say that it's "perfect", despite all the hard work that's gone into it.

I do have a question for Arena competitors though: Do you really care what the arena looks like, outside of terrain features that supply an advantage or inflict a disadvantage on your team composition?

02/13/2013 03:39 PMPosted by Phlegeton
That's not to say that I think we should just be handed a set of gear once we decide to pvp. There should still be a set of gear you have to obtain, but I think one should be it. You have the crafted stuff if you want to have something just walking into bg's, and then you get your main set for the season from honor. After that, conquest points can be used to get aesthetic items that differentiate you such as transmog gear, titles, mounts, tabards, etc.


I believe I covered this in a prior post in this thread. While I personally think that they're cool for a lot of reasons, aesthetic only rewards aren't really the best option, because there are power increasing rewards being handed out in PvE that would quickly over-shadow PvP gear if there was no power progression. I'll quote what I wrote above, because I think it's still relevant to this point:

"There are logistical and design issues at work here. It's really not as simple as simply saying "Here's your PvP suit. Go to town." If there's no PvP gear progression, then Raid gear begins outshining PvP gear and becomes the obvious choice. If the default PvP gear outshines Raid gear right off of the bat, then it becomes the obvious choice for entry level PvP, rendering those item rewards instantly obsolete. Our current design direction dictates that we don't want major, artificial divisions to exist between PvP and PvE. Your character should always be your character, and your gear is part of that package. While your current gear might not be optimal for a specific purpose, we want you to be able to take whatever you're wearing wherever you want to go (within reason, hence item level restrictions). For now, we strongly believe that arranging systems so that PvP gear only works in PvP and PvE gear only works in PvE would not feel good, nor be good for the game."

02/13/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Joedasa
Truthfully, I was applauding such a bold move on Blizzard's part to finally put a hypothetical end to the monumental grind to get gear, but seeing that it won't be here in 5.2 for the new season is just a huge letdown. Presumably, it will be here in 5.3, which, if it follows suit with MoP's patch release pace, will be in the middle of S13. It sounds awfully sloppy.


Just for clarity, catch-up hasn't been delayed, and was always planned for 5.3. We announced catch-up for 5.3 in this blog:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8397168/PvP_Gear_in_52_and_Beyond-1_17_2013
My biggest concern with PVP right now is that it is very difficult to have a self sufficient character that only does PVP. It is expensive to get your gear up to the highest level with Gem and Enchants. It becomes even more so when you have to replace the gear during the season.

There is no income for players that only PVP. Many people do not find dallies fun. I personally do not. I hate dallies, and I tend not to do PVE instances. As a result, it is very difficult to gem/enchant gear.

I know that many PVEers are "forced" into dallies and do them, but I think there should be a better system in place. I don't think its fun to be "forced" into PVE content so that I can PVP at the appropriate level.

My suggestion would be to add (restore) PVP Dallies. You could have daily quests for each of the BGs (or alternate between them). This way I would have a way to earn income without being forced to do content I hate. I play the game to PVP, and if I have to grind BGs to get income, I am fine with that. Even when I am honor/conquest capped, I still grind BGs for fun.

I just wish it was viable to remain competitive while doing what I enjoy.


I do have a question for Arena competitors though: Do you really care what the arena looks like, outside of terrain features that supply an advantage or inflict a disadvantage on your team composition?


Not at all. The plainer, the better. Terrain features often brings bugs with it (think of Blink and Gnomes on BEA).
02/13/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Daxxarri
[quote="79222393150"]This. Right here is the issue. People who "dabble" in Random BG's for some honor or PvP, or new people trying to PvP without a dedicated group for rated BGs/Arena will walk into a random queue, and get smoked by an opposing team in full Glad. How do you think they feel? "Oh well, they're so skilled. I guess I should step up my game" or "Wow, they have such better gear than I do. I don't want to sit through loss after loss until I have the honor/cponquest to get close. I'll just quit now." It sounds defeatist, and it is, but that's what a lot of people think.


That is pretty much how I feel about it. I NEVER go in to a PvP bout expecting to win. I expect to get my backside handed to me and told by my own teammates "Your gear sucks." Even on a loss, I can earn a little honor to try and buy a new piece of gear. But in all my history of playing the game, I have yet to max out gear in PvP or PvE. I often just do not have the time before everything is 1-UP'ed with a new patch or season.

But the only fix to that is to make the time to grind out all that is needed. Frankly, I just cannot do that until money and food are no longer required.
02/13/2013 06:23 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Our current design direction dictates that we don't want major, artificial divisions to exist between PvP and PvE. Your character should always be your character, and your gear is part of that package. While your current gear might not be optimal for a specific purpose, we want you to be able to take whatever you're wearing wherever you want to go (within reason, hence item level restrictions). For now, we strongly believe that arranging systems so that PvP gear only works in PvP and PvE gear only works in PvE would not feel good, nor be good for the game.


But then we go right back to what I said earlier: this division already exists, if only in one direction. PvP gear is currently fine to use in PvE content, only falling behind PvE gear due to lower ilevel and irrelevant set bonuses, but PvE gear is all but completely useless in PvP, especially since the addition of PvP Power caused PvP gear to also hit harder on other players than PvE gear, which had traditionally been the only upside of wearing PvE gear in PvP. Because of PvP Power and Resilience, PvE gear already only works in PvE, unless of course you're facing another PvE-geared player.

I know Blizzard doesn't want to simply split the game in half along PvE and PvP content lines, but PvE and PvP are two different games, and the same systems just can't always work for both considering how different each game's goals are. WoW is like a chimera made of one herbivore and one carnivore; they're both animals, but the same meal isn't going to keep them both healthy.
02/13/2013 11:51 AMPosted by Joosenjin
People DON'T PvP to collect gear. The dynamic combat against real human competitors provides the draw to play, and people only care about gear insomuch as you HAVE to have PvP gear to PvP with any significant success.


If this was true then Battle grounds like AV would be awesome

but they aren't. Instead people ignore the other players and rush to the end boss so that they can end the game as quickly as possible, collect their points and que up to do it again.

far too many players right now are more concerned with their points than they are with fighting the other players. It's all about Honor/Hour now.
Heres my 2 cents, its something alot of people need to come to terms with.

why is there say 2300 KFC's and 2600 KFC's. They both have the same exact gear, they have both been playing since the season started, yet 1 team is 300 rating higher then the other.

this happens all the time, why is there 1800 shatter play teams and 2100 shatter play teams, they both have the exact gear?

its been like this since the dawn of time, gear eventually is a non issue, yet there are teams 100 200 300 400 500 etc points higher then other teams of the same comp and they have the same exact gear.

knowledge? skill? experience? Gear isnt everything, when you accept the idea that gear is everything you have already lost.


Actually no, gear is still a HUGE factor in PvP. Moreso in this expansion than others. You can literally get one shot without gear. That isn't skill. Please get off your high horse and understand that gear has gotten more important than ever. People are getting one shot all over the place, and with the addition of PvP power, without gear, you're basically half of a player.
02/13/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Drakmor
People DON'T PvP to collect gear. The dynamic combat against real human competitors provides the draw to play, and people only care about gear insomuch as you HAVE to have PvP gear to PvP with any significant success.


If this was true then Battle grounds like AV would be awesome

but they aren't. Instead people ignore the other players and rush to the end boss so that they can end the game as quickly as possible, collect their points and que up to do it again.

far too many players right now are more concerned with their points than they are with fighting the other players. It's all about Honor/Hour now.


The reason for that is because people often don't enjoy things like AV because it's not even about PvP. I call that a "PvE" BG. people just want to get the points to do things like RBGs and arena.
Why is this thread http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7894109626?page=4 mostly ignored, whilst this that has to do mostly with gear is full of blue responses?
02/13/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Drakmor
People DON'T PvP to collect gear. The dynamic combat against real human competitors provides the draw to play, and people only care about gear insomuch as you HAVE to have PvP gear to PvP with any significant success.


If this was true then Battle grounds like AV would be awesome

but they aren't. Instead people ignore the other players and rush to the end boss so that they can end the game as quickly as possible, collect their points and que up to do it again.

far too many players right now are more concerned with their points than they are with fighting the other players. It's all about Honor/Hour now.


Actually, AV was like that loooong before the many, many changes to it. There is not a battleground in WoW where wiping out the other team is the way to win. Not one.


I would argue that I constantly see players in random battlegrounds with a full PVP set. They have nothing to gain from playing in randoms, yet here they are.


They are there to pwn noobs in greens.
Heres my 2 cents, its something alot of people need to come to terms with.

why is there say 2300 KFC's and 2600 KFC's. They both have the same exact gear, they have both been playing since the season started, yet 1 team is 300 rating higher then the other.

this happens all the time, why is there 1800 shatter play teams and 2100 shatter play teams, they both have the exact gear?

its been like this since the dawn of time, gear eventually is a non issue, yet there are teams 100 200 300 400 500 etc points higher then other teams of the same comp and they have the same exact gear.

knowledge? skill? experience? Gear isnt everything, when you accept the idea that gear is everything you have already lost.


Everything you just said is basically irrelevant to this discussion. Skill is the deciding factor in those matches precisely because both parties have the same gear. No one's arguing that skill is irrelevant in PvP. What we're arguing is that skill is secondary to gear by a wide margin. Yes, the 2600 team beats the 2300 team because they're better, but then the 2300 team goes into a random BG and roflstomps all over people with less gear than them without even having to try.

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