A Question of Valor

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
Allow me to preface this post with the way that I enjoy to play World of Warcraft, hopefully this will help put where I come from into some context.

I love pushing PvE progression, I love raiding, I love that feeling you get when killing a boss for the first time. That being said, due to time constrictions, I've not been able to play at the level I've always wanted to, but that's not the point of this post. Because of those time constrictions, I've always enjoyed having a second or third character leveled up and geared out to the best my time will allow. I don't obsessively level alts, but I enjoy playing a few different characters at a time.

Now that you all have some context, let me get into the meat of this post.

I know it has been said a million times, but Mists of Pandaria is currently very difficult on players who enjoy having a distinctive main with various alts. For me, and I say me because I don't want to speak for any other players out there, the thing that hinders me most from playing and leveling different alts is the time it takes to cap out valor points during the week. I want my Main to be as competitive as she can be, so I work hard to make sure I get to my 1000 valor points per week, which leaves little time for leveling alts.

Now it's time for my suggestion, for those of you who have stuck it through this far.

What if Valor Points were BoA (either full account or realm specific)? Let me lay it out a little bit more. Imagine you are a raider who raids Tuesday, Wednesday and Monday, you finish up your raid Wednesday night, your character is exalted with all the factions, and you just want a break from playing him or her until the next raid, but you know you need valor points for that upgrade that will help your guild get its next kill. What if you could log over to an Alt, and queue up for a dungeon to help him or her gear, or do dailies to progress his or her rep with them, and the valor points you earned from that were shared across characters.

Here's why I think a system like that would work.

If players could work through solo content on characters that actually need to work through that progression, it would be great. It would encourage playing multiple characters, and all in all it would keep people online more. MoP has already laid out a very good policy on the way Valor Items are purchased, so a fresh 90 would have to do some solo content before they were in Rep epics, so that potential problem is already laid out in the game design.

Sounds too good to be true?

Obviously there would have to be some limits. This is where my thinking stopped, and I would love to hear some feedback. My idea is that only a certain number of points are allowed to be spent per character per week. This would discourage obsessive hoarding.

Anyways, I appreciate anybody who has taken the time to read through all of this, I've been pondering it for a couple of weeks now. I would love to continue this discussion, please feel free to leave your opinions!
The 50% valor once capped makes a difference. Generally I valor cap my main by saturday and do scenario/heroics/lfr on alts after that. I still think the 40 valor per raid boss killed is pretty bad as spend a fair bit of time doing stuff just for valor.
Looking for ideas eh? Try some of these out for size.

1. Valor cap for the week would be 1000 x the amount of level 90 toons you have. Valor can be earned by any toon and pooled into that cap.

2. To keep things at least a bit in control, the total cap would have to be lowered I think. While 3k per toon seems alright when they aren't sharing, seeing someone with 11 90s on a server having a cap of 33k valor seems... well, insane. And speaking of, while I am thinking about it, would this pool be based off of server and/or faction?

3. To keep someone from spending all their pooled valor onto one toon, I say instead of limiting the valor, you limit a toon to one valor purchase per week. This means even with hording valor, you still won't gear valor gear much faster than what you currently can do.

4. When patches drop that have upgrades, you can only do a maximum of 2 VP upgrades per week (total of 1500 VP spent). To balance this out, once you buy a piece of VP gear, you are no longer able to upgrade for the week, and vice versa. Again, this is per toon.

There you go. Some stuff to get a discussion going, though honestly I feel kind of against the idea. Still, I also like a good debate every once in a while.
3. To keep someone from spending all their pooled valor onto one toon, I say instead of limiting the valor, you limit a toon to one valor purchase per week. This means even with hording valor, you still won't gear valor gear much faster than what you currently can do.

4. When patches drop that have upgrades, you can only do a maximum of 2 VP upgrades per week (total of 1500 VP spent). To balance this out, once you buy a piece of VP gear, you are no longer able to upgrade for the week, and vice versa. Again, this is per toon.


Under this restriction, "raiders" will feel "mandatory" to grind out 1500 VP or 1 gear worth of VP (up to 2200 VP) account-wide every week instead of 1000 VP under current system though...

edit: and you can't possibly limit ppl to spend at most 1k VP per character per week since items cost more than that...

edit 2: One way i can think of is to "champion" your VP into another character, such that any VP you earn while playing your alt (or a fraction of it) will go into your main until the main's VP is capped... Not easy to implement though...

edit 3: Or another way is that you can buy some BoA token using that can be redeemed for VP, up to character weekly cap... Sorta like how some Honor Token back in WoLK being BoA...
02/14/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Arpandaday
There you go. Some stuff to get a discussion going, though honestly I feel kind of against the idea. Still, I also like a good debate every once in a while.


Might I ask why you feel against the idea?

02/14/2013 11:36 PMPosted by Emmey
Under this restriction, "raiders" will feel "mandatory" to grind out 1500 VP or 1 gear worth of VP (up to 2200 VP) account-wide every week instead of 1000 VP under current system though...


But the beauty of the system would be that even if they feel it's mandatory, it would be accomplishable across other toons. They could grind out valor by running heroics or LFR to gear a new 90. Or by doing dailies to gather reputation on a secondary character.
This Atalyx guy is bad and totally over-thinking stuff like he always does.

All of these ideas sound cool and interesting, but often times the simplest solution is the best. Now I might be biased but I really think Theck hit the nail on the head in his blog ( http://sacredduty.net/2013/02/13/valor-morghulis/ ).

To sum it up, he calls for a flat increase in valor rewards.

But then, what, you may ask, is the solution? How do you provide enough content to satisfy the players who want lots of content for their mains and give raiders the restful period of the valor plateau at the same time? I don’t think there’s a simple answer to that question, but I do think there’s one thing that would help immensely: buff valor gains across the board. Instead of 40 points for a raid boss, double it to 80. Instead of 80 for the daily heroic, it could be 120-150. 80 instead of 40 for a daily scenario, and 10 instead of 5 for a daily quest. Make valor capping easier and you give players the versatility to do the content they want without reducing the amount of content available.


Again, it's not fancy. It's not elegant. It's interesting. It's not fun. It's not special. It's simply simple. It works and is in no way detrimental to the overall MMO gaming experience. It reduces the time we feel obligated to spend on our main characters and allows us to progress more fluidly with alternative characters.

Edit: Just to clarify, I actually really like Atalyx's idea and the many possible routes it could take in implementation, progression, practicality, etc. I just think that if we're going to look for ways to increase playability of anything beyond main characters, the solution needs to be simple.
While the simple solution Val presented would be a quick fix, I don't necessarily believe that it would fix everything in the long run. It's going to get tiring capping valor, no matter what. But I think some of that could be alleviated by spreading it out across characters.

I'm a traditionalist in many regards, but with the advent of BoA Mounts, Achievements etc, I think the idea of progression one character at a time has somewhat been left behind. But right now I feel like Blizzard is sitting on the fence, one side being character by character progress, the other being a joint effort, not wanting to jump over it, but not wanting to stay completely put. Mists has given us quite a few things to do at max level, and yet I still feel like I did in Cataclysm.

In my mind: we have 11 character slots per realm, but what benefits are there to having multiple characters? To investing that extra time to get them to 90 (we all know it's a major investment). Would it be so wrong to have alts grant us some sort of perk?

edit: Feel free to ask me to clarify anything I said right now, I should be in bed, I should have been in bed several hours ago, but clearly I'm not. I can see where what I typed probably doesn't make sense, but it makes sense to me at this late hour... Maybe I'll fix it in the morning. /nod.
Meh, my alts giving me my farm are all they need to do.
02/14/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Atalyx
What if Valor Points were BoA (either full account or realm specific)?


Then you'd feel that you were holding your main back whenever you spent them on an alt?

Unless you're suggesting that each alt should have its own cap toward the common pool: then people would feel compelled to have alts so that they can chip in valor to gear up the main faster.

I think this suggestion would work better for justice, which isn't such serious business (and therefore doesn't have a weekly cap). Plus, Blizzard may have concerns about catapulting alts into raids with valor gear without playing them through dungeons (or lower tier raids) first; but justice gear is low enough ilvl that you could have bought stuff better than that, so it shouldn't raise the same concerns.

(re: just give people more valor for everything)
02/15/2013 01:00 AMPosted by Valtierí
It reduces the time we feel obligated to spend on our main characters and allows us to progress more fluidly with alternative characters.


This is great until you get to a player who doesn't have an alt and doesn't really want one. Then they're done by Thursday and have nothing else to do for the rest of the week. Blizzard has to think about those players too.

02/15/2013 01:07 AMPosted by Atalyx
In my mind: we have 11 character slots per realm, but what benefits are there to having multiple characters?


Achievements, more farm slots, a greater variety of professions that you don't have to go to the AH for (including gathering alts, for those who want 2x production on their mains). Being able to cover all 3 roles. Not having to play the same playstyle all the time.

Let me flip it around: why should there be any benefit beyond being able to play different ways? How big can you make that kind of benefit before people start feeling like they *need* alts whether they like it or not? Farming valor on your alts to progress your main faster would *definitely* be over that line.

P.S. Alternative idea: when you gain valor on one character, all your other level 86+ characters on that server also gain half that much, but it counts toward their caps. Instead of the current buff, by the time you cap, all your alts are already half full on valor. This would still allow you to use your alts to make valor for your main, but it would actually be *less* efficient than just gaining the valor *on* your main, so people who don't want alts wouldn't feel forced into it. Someone with 11 high level characters would end up making a total of 6x valor for everything they did (if none of them were capped yet), but man, with that many high level characters, they're gonna need it. (Or they could put in DRs -- e.g. if more than two alts are eligible and uncapped, they evenly split 100% of the valor gained by the main rather than gaining 50% each.)
02/15/2013 12:12 AMPosted by Atalyx
Might I ask why you feel against the idea?


02/14/2013 11:36 PMPosted by Emmey
Under this restriction, "raiders" will feel "mandatory" to grind out 1500 VP or 1 gear worth of VP (up to 2200 VP) account-wide every week instead of 1000 VP under current system though...


Emmey covered it. :P
Any fix that's done would have to be fairly simple, if it's excessively confusing to players then it won't happen. Another thing Blizzard doesn't like is alts directly benefiting other characters. So any complex pooling/sharing mechanism gets shot down twice.

A method that I'm a huge fan of is:
You gain the Valor of the Ancients buff whenever you have accumulated 1000 VP on any combination of characters.

It's totally simple. Alts sort of help your main cap faster, you still have to do the same amount of work for the first 1000. The only real benefit is that you can get the +50% earlier in the week, and your main can also take advantage of it. Valor-capping all those alts will still take a lot of work, as it should, but it won't be such a huge burden to grind out valor ASAP.
To be honest i'd rather spend my mains valor on my alts. I purchased a total ot two pieces with valor so far this expac on my main. Doing the Wrathion quest chain for Test was annoying as all i did was upgrade as there was nothing to do with valor.

Regarless i think it it's current state is pretty good.

And yes beside my main i have 4 other 90's and really spend most of my time raiding.
I actually have a response to most, if not all of this, but I apparently need to do it in numerous posts because of how large the reply is and how low the character limit in a reply is, but because I'm running on virtually no sleep, I won't get to it until tomorrow morning/afternoon.

Until then, more discussion is a good thing and potentially very helpful.
IMO the 50% Valor buff should kick in for alts before the 1k cap, but it seems like it's becoming a non issue with all these LFR wings. I also run GL dailies every day on Dig and my alt. Great coins, great VP, chance at a Skyshard or Imperial Silk/Scroll of Wisdom in the Treasures. No other dailies are worth doing really compared to GL. If you do GL a few days a week you'll be set for coins and probably well off for VP.

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