No difficult non-instanced content in game.

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And that's a great opinion, except that you are actually just wrong. This game is designed around end content. It's balanced around end content. This is why they keep producing, you guessed it, more end content! I'm not saying the leveling portion shouldn't be at least enticing enough to do it considering we all have to, but it's not what World of Warcraft is trying to sell you on.


So why was a large part of the emphasis in Cata the redesign of leveling content?
Actually, Feyt, I'm not whining at all, as I don't really CARE enough to stop playing a GAME just because I think there are things wrong with it. I'm too old and too busy with real life to look at WoW as more than a silly hobby.

I gave my OPINION as someone who has been playing role playing games for over 20 years. FACT is that BLIZZARD calls this an RPG, and then ignores the major basis of role playing games, questing. Fact is that if Blizzard only wants people to do end game content that is ALL that this game would be. Fact is that new players come in all of the time and should be able to enjoy leveling from 1-90 in whatever fashion they choose based on what's in the game. Fact is that if the only part of the game MEANT to be specifically challenging is instances, PvP'ing and raids what IS the point of the rest of it? Looks? Ambiance?

How is this game a "max level game"? What is the point of all of the other levels and areas at those levels then? If they don't want us to do those areas why are they in the game? If we're just supposed to pretend they don't exist, why are they there? Well, I would guess they are there for leveling toons. You know, the ones that aren't AT 90 yet. Since the logical assumption is that they are there for leveling, for PLAYING through, why is it a bad thing to want them to be challenging FOR THAT LEVEL? Why is it a bad thing that we don't want to hit, say, level 22 halfway through a level 10-15 area? No, I don't know exactly what the numbers are, but I DO know that I can not finish an area without over leveling it, unless I turn off exp. Why is it "whining" that some of us would like to see our toons have a little more of a challenge to quest in a level 20 zone at level 20?

Telling me that I am an "I'm entitled" kind of person is a little silly when I'm posting that everything is TOO easy and streamlined and there isn't much challenge to OTHER parts of the game. It's not entitlement to think that every level and area that Blizzard made should be just as challenging as every other part of the game for appropriate leveled toons. If I am playing a level 90 toon I should have challenging content, but if I'm playing a level 42 toon it should be just as challenging for that toon as well.

Edit for spelling


I agree completely. If the game was made for end content only, everyone would start at 90 raid geared and just raid or arena. But wait, there's five continents created to make the game enjoyable to play. There's more 'solo leveling' content than there are instances and raids in this game. There are those of us who like a challenge in all levels of play.

I posted before they should bring back the elite world areas and make quest lines for them achievements. Then you would see them get more attention. Besides the fact that no one ever goes to the areas that were elite... except maybe Durnholde because of the revamped quest line there. Plus, with CRZ, there is more of a reason and more oppurtunity to make groups and quest together. I'm not talking FF difficulty where it takes a whole group just to take down one mob per ten minutes. I'm talking duos or trios (scenario difficulty?) worth of difficulty content... but just in specific areas. That way soloers can solo and team players can group. No one is forced to do all the content to progress.
02/18/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Juicylucy
If you want CHALLENGING why are you playing the most OP class? try some class you can gank easy, and level that up stop whining you dont feel challenged when you picked the highest dps class you could get and probably mastered it! Play a mediocre class master that and !@#$!


I don't understand this whole OP class thing. I've played everything. I have somewhere between 10-16 toons at any given time, ranging between level 1 and 58. I've never mastered any class (no maxed toons), so to speak. The highest level toon I have had was 62. They all seem to be about the same to me. Tried playing a priest, a mage, shaman, warlock, all of them. I like most classes except Warlock, Warrior and DK. I have a couple of druids, 3 priests, a hunter, 2 pallies, 2 mages, a few monks, others I don't play as often. Priests are my current favorite. They all are about the same as far as difficulty goes. Too easy, level too fast, so I switch between them alot so as not to get bored. It works for me. I'm looking forward to seeing higher level content, but I'm not in any big hurry to get there. I guess most of the OP class arguement applies when PvP'ing? I don't do that, so I'm not sure. If it's supposed to apply against computer controlled enemies, then ALL classes are OP.
I think the OP forgets that this game is ran by a business out to make a profit. The content you are looking for is gone for a reason and that's because not enough people were doing it to justify the resources to develop it. Blizzard dev's even said they were not going to make anymore elite questing/zones for this xpac and future xpacs because there were not enough people doing it when it was current.

The content you are looking for will probably never come back to this game so you're going to have make a decision for yourself and decide if World of Warcraft is even the game for you. There are plenty of other MMOs on the market today that offer what you are looking for. For instance Tera is a good game for difficult open world content (BAMs) you are looking for and its free to play. GW2 is another one.

So trying to ask for difficult open world content where a small amount of the total population will actually attempt, in a waiting room/instanced style game will probably never happen unfortunately.
02/18/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Mcdrunk
So why was a large part of the emphasis in Cata the redesign of leveling content?


Because vanilla questing sucked?
02/18/2013 09:41 AMPosted by Feyt
If you want Challenging content, go and challenge yourself, there is plenty of it in the game, but you refuse to acknowledge it because you have this disillusioned idea that non-instanced content works in a way that it doesn't.


What is this illusion of the way content works outside of an instance? You mean what was said earlier of kill mob/gather item/fight boss? This is in and out of instances already. They work the same. The difference is that one is made so there is a lot less competition for the mobs/bosses/items and has the potential to have better than normal items. Other than that, same, same.

What about all the issues with non-instanced "difficult" content, if you make it difficult and tuned for one person then people will just bring friends. If you make it so they can't bring friends, they only ever have to beat it once, as well as all the griefing potential and the fact that people may accidentally wander into it expecting it's something else. I'm not saying that dangers like the fel reaver aren't fun, but you can't just stick "hard solo content" out in the world and not expect it to be "easy group content" and if that's what we are dealing with, aren't you just "artificially" inflating the difficulty by not being in a group?


Gold star. The players who make the challenge will NOT bring friends or will bring just enough friends where it's still a challenge. As it is, there's no choice. It just simply is NOT a challenge. I guess we could strip down naked and fight with a flounder, that would definitely make it a challenge.

Seriously though, why are you so intense about not "hindering" yourself? If you want a challenge so badly but you aren't willing to go out and make one, I don't think you really want a challenge.


Still, how do you make it a challenge? I mean besides fighting without gear and using a flounder? Seriously, what's so heroic about fighting naked with a flounder? Bragging rights?

What about loot drops and respawns? Does only one person a day get to be included in this content because it's on a 24 hours respawn? Does it drop anything good? Is it farmable? Necessary? The "difficult" content is in instances for a reason.


You do realize the first part of MoP did this right? The first two major quest lines gave you items better than the first two instances and weren't in the instances. And this has been in the game since vanilla outside of intsances? They were just normal quest lines ending with a climatic boss fight that was a semi-challenge. Spawn timer? Drops? Farmable? Really, you're reaching here. The game already has respawn bosses, world rare/epic drops and you can even farm instances so I don't know what this is all about.

TLDR: There is difficult content in the game, go do it instead of telling blizzard that you should only ever have to play the way you think and that they should design content specifically for you.


As mentioned, having to wait for level 90 to get to the difficult part of the game is lame for any game. It should be a challenging from low levels through high levels and to end game content. At least most players play games for the challenge. I do know a few who only play easy games because they know they can win everytime and any game they have a chance of losing, they avoid like the plague. WoW doesn't seem like it should be one of those games but it's definitely turning into one.

Sadly, all it took was a poorly designed expansion (WotLK) to be the cause of the level race. Cataclysm didn't help in the least. I say poorly designed because they allowed leveling to max level too fast. The evidence was in lack of content to hold off the players until the next expansion. MoP followed suit but that's only because they have their formula that everyone is used to and they can't change it without losing a bunch of money.

You are choosing to cut out the part of the game that is specifically designed to be challenging, you can't honestly say "I want challenge and I shouldn't have to make it up, but I'm not going to attempt the challenge provided because I don't want that kind of challenge" and expect to be taken seriously.


First, you have to tell me what challenge is provided. Do you mean the challenge of getting through unchallenging content so I can get to the challenging content?

Still, how do you make it a challenge? I mean besides fighting without gear and using a flounder? Seriously, what's so heroic about fighting naked with a flounder? Bragging rights?


Same way as people who train with weighted clothes.... or swimmers who let their leg hair grow out during training.

You could also try bringing smaller numbers. I'd go to a 20p Sha for instance, just for the attempts and challenge.
02/18/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Bobmuffins
So why was a large part of the emphasis in Cata the redesign of leveling content?


Because vanilla questing sucked?


If you think vanilla questing sucked, you must be really unhappy with it now. The level of difficulty went from 'What's the area of this triangle" (Vanilla) to "fit this shape into the correct hole" (present).
02/18/2013 12:50 PMPosted by Kerasi
If you think vanilla questing sucked, you must be really unhappy with it now.


There's a reason I refuse to level characters unless I have RAF active.

I'm 100% serious when I say the game would be better if we all started at 90.

Still, how do you make it a challenge? I mean besides fighting without gear and using a flounder? Seriously, what's so heroic about fighting naked with a flounder? Bragging rights?


Same way as people who train with weighted clothes.... or swimmers who let their leg hair grow out during training.


Um, no. weighted clothes and growing hair isn't to make it a challenge. It's to make them work harder so when the time comes that they don't wear the weights and shave the hair, they are that much better at their sport.

Fighting with a flounder doesn't make me hit my rotations any better than fighting with any other weapon.

You could also try bringing smaller numbers. I'd go to a 20p Sha for instance, just for the attempts and challenge.


The problem here is I'm already one player. I can't get any less than one. The only other thing is to fight with a flounder instead of a real weapon. But the rub here is I'm playing a hero. I like to look at least semi-heroic even if Blizzard gives me armor pieces that look like a harliquinn at times.

Unless you mean only use auto-attack or don't use some of my cooldowns... in that case, got you covered there too. I don't use hardly any of my cooldowns outside of instances. Guess what... still no challenge.
02/18/2013 01:00 PMPosted by Kerasi
Um, no. weighted clothes and growing hair isn't to make it a challenge. It's to make them work harder so when the time comes that they don't wear the weights and shave the hair, they are that much better at their sport.


Uh.. yes it is. That's how you build muscle-mass, by stressing and challenging it so that you'll grow more. Then, on race day, you've already done the harder version - and you can focus on time instead.

The entire point of training IS to challenge yourself.
02/18/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Kelsha
I gave my OPINION as someone who has been playing role playing games for over 20 years. FACT is that BLIZZARD calls this an RPG, and then ignores the major basis of role playing games, questing. Fact is that if Blizzard only wants people to do end game content that is ALL that this game would be. Fact is that new players come in all of the time and should be able to enjoy leveling from 1-90 in whatever fashion they choose based on what's in the game. Fact is that if the only part of the game MEANT to be specifically challenging is instances, PvP'ing and raids what IS the point of the rest of it? Looks? Ambiance?


None of that is fact and is quite opposite to what blizzard does and says. They don't ignore the game or questing, they just don't emphasize it as largely because end game is where they can really design/balance/create content well. Nothing is stopping anybody from enjoying the leveling experience, and nothing is stopping you from doing it normally or Ironman style (http://wowironman.com/rules) if you want a challenge. There's challenge modes, outdoor bosses, raids, battlegrounds, RBGs, Arenas, all if you want a challenge, the rest of the content is to make gold, provide something to do and have fun in, just because you choose not to doesn't mean it's not there.

02/18/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Kelsha
How is this game a "max level game"? What is the point of all of the other levels and areas at those levels then? If they don't want us to do those areas why are they in the game? If we're just supposed to pretend they don't exist, why are they there?


You really love drastic extremes and exaggerations don't you? Blizzard has said themselves that WoW is a game that is mostly enjoyed at max level and tuned around max level. I'm not going to hunt down the quote as it's forever old, but trust me, Despite your grudging nonacceptance, it's still a max level game. Leveling exists to allow players to better learn new classes and get a feel for the game, as well as make some gold to fund themselves on the way up to max level where a whole new game starts.

02/18/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Kelsha
Since the logical assumption is that they are there for leveling, for PLAYING through, why is it a bad thing to want them to be challenging FOR THAT LEVEL? Why is it a bad thing that we don't want to hit, say, level 22 halfway through a level 10-15 area? No, I don't know exactly what the numbers are, but I DO know that I can not finish an area without over leveling it, unless I turn off exp. Why is it "whining" that some of us would like to see our toons have a little more of a challenge to quest in a level 20 zone at level 20?


See the funny thing is, you aren't talking about challenge, you are talking about duration. I'm all for making zones last closer to the full duration of the story, I left so many places halfway on my way up to 90 for the 5th time (I've got at least 1 85 of everything and this will be my 5th 90, I'm familiar with the questing experience). If you want "Challenge" for level 20, that means quests that will dead end you and mobs that are almost impossible to beat at your level, and if that's mandatory to get through then people will just bring in friends to help (I used to do that all the time back when this was the case) and if it's optional, you will either sit there forever without people helping you (because people helping you is "hindering" the challenge) while people skip past it, or realize you can't do it and then skip it as well.

02/18/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Kelsha
Telling me that I am an "I'm entitled" kind of person is a little silly when I'm posting that everything is TOO easy and streamlined and there isn't much challenge to OTHER parts of the game. It's not entitlement to think that every level and area that Blizzard made should be just as challenging as every other part of the game for appropriate leveled toons. If I am playing a level 90 toon I should have challenging content, but if I'm playing a level 42 toon it should be just as challenging for that toon as well.


Blizzard has plenty of challenging content. You can make your own challenging content, claiming that there is no challenging content and you want a specific type of content that's just your flavor of challenge is nothing but entitlement. Deny it all you want, but you are still kicking and screaming "do it this way because I don't want to do the way you have it."

TLDR: Challenge and amount of content are entirely different things. Claiming blizzard has "not enough" challenging content when you repeatedly refuse to accept the multitudes of content they do have is not a good argument, and just comes off as entitled.
02/18/2013 01:03 PMPosted by Snowfox
Um, no. weighted clothes and growing hair isn't to make it a challenge. It's to make them work harder so when the time comes that they don't wear the weights and shave the hair, they are that much better at their sport.


Uh.. yes it is. That's how you build muscle-mass, by stressing and challenging it so that you'll grow more. Then, on race day, you've already done the harder version - and you can focus on time instead.

The entire point of training IS to challenge yourself.


Training is not challenging yourself, training is getting ready for the challenge. If training is a challenge, you will over-train and be useless for the actual event.
02/18/2013 01:12 PMPosted by Kerasi
Training is not challenging yourself, training is getting ready for the challenge. If training is a challenge, you will over-train and be useless for the actual event.


I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a good day.
02/18/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Mcdrunk
So why was a large part of the emphasis in Cata the redesign of leveling content?


It was the same for going on 6-7 years, so the redesigned it, it really did desperately need the revamp too.

Hilariously (and to my point) Cataclysm was one of the worst expansions in the games history, and Blizzard has acknowledged and improved upon many mistakes made in cataclysm. One large mistake being not enough focus on endgame because of the redesign of leveling content.

Not enough focus on endgame.
Try raiding Orgrimmar or SW on a high pop server.
02/18/2013 12:50 PMPosted by Kerasi
The level of difficulty went from 'What's the area of this triangle" (Vanilla) to "fit this shape into the correct hole" (present).

More like, "whats the sum of all three angles."
02/18/2013 01:10 PMPosted by Feyt
Blizzard has plenty of challenging content. You can make your own challenging content, claiming that there is no challenging content and you want a specific type of content that's just your flavor of challenge is nothing but entitlement. Deny it all you want, but you are still kicking and screaming "do it this way because I don't want to do the way you have it."


Apparently you're just choosing to ignore the part where I said that I think the content that is ALREADY there should be more challenging? I don't care if they put new content in the game, I have enough to do. I don't want a specific type of content, I just think the content that is ALREADY THERE for people to play should be equalling as challenging at ALL LEVELS for the appropriate leveled toon. Level 20 areas to be JUST AS challenging for level 20 toons as level 90 content is for 90th leveled toons. It's only common sense to assume that those areas are there to be PLAYED THROUGH at level.

As I said before, I really don't care what they do to the game, I play it because I enjoy it or I wouldn't spend the money. It was just my 2 cents on the fact that level 20 content isn't challenging for level 20 toons (same for 40's at 40th, etc), it's almost impossible to die at lower levels and there is very little in the REST of (outside PvP, dungeons, etc.) the game to make you feel like you're a hero and are accomplishing something. The fact is there IS more to the game than instances, raids, and PvP, it's there for anyone to see so no one can claim that it isn't an important part of the game, that is opinion, it is JUST as important to the game as ANY OTHER part of it to some people. To some PvP is meaningless, to some running dungeons is worthless, we don't expect it to be removed just because we don't do it. We just want the REST OF THE GAME to be just as challenging.

And for the record, I have several Ironman toons I run, have came up with several of my own ways to make questing harder, point is that I'm not the developer and in some people's opinions, they should stop making everything so streamlined and easy. The AI is dumber than dirt i.e. mobs don't even use, or use badly, half of the abilities they have, etc.
02/18/2013 01:38 PMPosted by Kelsha
I don't care if they put new content in the game, I have enough to do. I don't want a specific type of content, I just think the content that is ALREADY THERE for people to play should be equalling as challenging at ALL LEVELS for the appropriate leveled toon. Level 20 areas to be JUST AS challenging for level 20 toons as level 90 content is for 90th leveled toons. It's only common sense to assume that those areas are there to be PLAYED THROUGH at level.


I'll restate that what you are asking for here isn't a challenge increase, it's a content duration increase. Level 20 questing content was no harder or easier than my level 89 questing content, other than the fact that the experience is changed and the mobs have more health, it takes me longer, it's not any harder though.

Content Duration =/= Difficulty.

02/18/2013 01:38 PMPosted by Kelsha
The fact is there IS more to the game than instances, raids, and PvP, it's there for anyone to see so no one can claim that it isn't an important part of the game, that is opinion, it is JUST as important to the game as ANY OTHER part of it to some people. To some PvP is meaningless, to some running dungeons is worthless, we don't expect it to be removed just because we don't do it. We just want the REST OF THE GAME to be just as challenging.


The rest of the game is fine at the difficulty it's at, I'm not denying it's existence, I'm just willing to accept it's place. You said yourself you don't have a max level character, it's kind of difficult to compare something that is supposed to be hard (like a raid or RBG) to something that isn't supposed to push you to your limits (Like questing) when you haven't done a large portion of what you're trying to compare. If questing was as hard as even normal mode raids I'm positive players would leave in droves! Nobody wants to do that 11 times to get all of their characters to 90. I know I wouldn't.

02/18/2013 01:38 PMPosted by Kelsha
And for the record, I have several Ironman toons I run, have came up with several of my own ways to make questing harder, point is that I'm not the developer and in some people's opinions, they should stop making everything so streamlined and easy. The AI is dumber than dirt i.e. mobs don't even use, or use badly, half of the abilities they have, etc.


Cool, Hope you are enjoying something actually difficult then. As for the developer comment, I'm going to go ahead and keep applauding their amazing content design and introduction up here at level 90 where once again content is built around and tuned for.

AI, lol have you seen raid bosses? The development and the AI for them is pretty damn impressive, I'd much rather them do that in big epic events (You know, like raids) rather than have every single mob have some complex pattern to figure out and beat, that would not only make questing take ages, it would make development take ages as well and very quickly start to tread on the novelty of raid mechanics.
i find it funny how the best offerings for challenging here is just "add more elite mobs." in other words, bump up damage and hit points. i don't see how that is a challenge so much as just doing more of the same old boring rotation for a longer period of time.

as far as leveling up and challenges are concerned, i think they're fine. you can't make everything too difficult or new players will just quit and find something else. also, in leveling it doesn't make a lot of sense to put equal challenges at every level. the point of leveling is that you acquire a new ability to be able to kill harder monsters that have more abilities. if the challenges at level 1 equate to level 90, then your game has a huge problem because there is no growth in the game as you progress through it.

the thing about leveling is learning how to manage yourself. it's a bildungsroman, the classic story of one's self growth and maturity. in this case, you get abilities and you get into situations where you learn to use them (or hopefully, you figure out when to use them). i don't think the issue is the challenge factor but the monotony and quantity of certain types of quests that make the game unchallenging after a while. kill XXX, talk to XXX, gather XXX, kill XXX to gather XXX to talk to XXX, etc. that's the basis of most of the game. you can make each individual encounter more challenging but it seems like a wasted effort to give each mob a million abilities just to make it "challenging."

i think the game needs to evolve the interface and questing mechanisms as well as increasing the interaction with the environment as opposed to more kill XXX, talk to XXX, gather XXX mechanics.

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