Dissolution of the Alliance and Horde.

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Another thread was discussing the possibility that the Horde would be absorbed into the Alliance after the Siege of Orgrimmar. I don't necessarily believe this will happen, but in reading I noticed that many posters had become strongly opposed to the idea very quickly. I neither endorse nor oppose this possible future line of events, my question is, hypothetically, what's the problem?

Several of the Horde races are not strongly opposed to the Alliance. The Tauren share many ideals and beliefs, and are willing to work with them. The Blood Elves see the High Elves as a betrayal, and hold a grudge against the humans for not coming to aid them when Arthas attacked (although it would have been extremely difficult, considering the state of Lordaeron), but Theron is willing to talk with the Alliance and the Draenei have even formed a strange sort of truce with them as evidenced by the Shattered Sun Offensive. The Goblins will follow their profit anywhere, being able to trade directly with all the races would be fantastic for them. Vol'jin I think would be very interested in peace talks. The Orcs and the Forsaken are the issue, but without a leader the Orcs would likely be willing to call at least a truce, especially with the encouragement of a figure like Thrall. The Forsaken, if they would join this 'Alliance of Azeroth', would constantly be at odds with the other races but no more than they already are within the Horde (specifically the Tauren) and could to some extent be shielded by the other Horde races.

This is assuming the Alliance races are open to this, but I think they would be. Velen has wanted peace for a long time, and this would only further his agenda. It would bring about the end of the invasion of Ashenvale for the Night Elves, and if trade began between all the races the Orcs would be able to get plenty of resources. Also I think Tyrande would see the value in the end of the Faction War. The Gnomes already accepted the assistance of all the races in Gnomeregan, and due to the continued state of their society they really can't oppose much of anything. The Dwarves have nothing against the Horde races, besides the Orcs, but their council can't decide on anything, and if there is peace the orcs are no threat. The Worgen have a great deal against the Forsaken, but they live with the Night Elves now, and again should be able to see the value in peace. The Humans have been the driving force behind the Alliance military all this time (it may not be right, but it's true). With Anduin wanting peace I can see him persuading his father to pursue diplomatic talks.

Because that's the thing, if there is peace, if everyone decides to work together and resolve disputes through negotiation, then there is no threat. If there is no threat there is no reason for the faction war, which exists because of misunderstandings and old grudges. We CAN work together, and it would open up a lot of possibilities lore-wise, plus make sense going up against the Burning Legion soon.

Again, I'm not advocating either side, simply examining the issue. I can't come up with any reason against such an outcome, besides 'We just don't like each other' which isn't valid because lore-wise different races within the same faction don't like each other. I'm asking for a valid argument against, is there one?
Seems like half the races on both factions are just fighting because that's what the humans/orcs tell them to do.
02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
If there is no threat there is no reason for the faction war, which exists because of misunderstandings and old grudges.


When is this myth going to stop being perpetuated?
What of racial tension?

What, you expect every Night elf and orc to drop hatred and become allies off the bat?

And you think that the Worgen/humans and Forsaken are just drop the who invasion/Lordaeron problem?

You have a very optimistic view on the many races.

02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
'Alliance of Azeroth'


I would prefer the Coalition of Azeroth.

02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
It would bring about the end of the invasion of Ashenvale for the Night Elves, and if trade began between all the races the Orcs would be able to get plenty of resources.


It failed last time. Why would it work now?

02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
but Theron is willing to talk with the Alliance and the Draenei have even formed a strange sort of truce with them as evidenced by the Shattered Sun Offensive.


Oh, that was the Aldor/Scryers, not Exodar/Silvermoon.
I neither endorse nor oppose this possible future line of events, my question is, hypothetically, what's the problem?


Because I rolled this toon to play Horde, not Diet Alliance.

I'm sure many Alliance players feel the exact same way respectively.
02/20/2013 04:05 AMPosted by Lochnar
Because I rolled this toon to play Horde, not Diet Alliance.


Yep. And if I wanted a Alliance, I would roll a, you know, Alliance toon.
02/20/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Ximothy
It would bring about the end of the invasion of Ashenvale for the Night Elves, and if trade began between all the races the Orcs would be able to get plenty of resources.


It failed last time. Why would it work now?


Because it only failed because the twilight hammer killed everyone with a brain in Ashenvale. Without them messing things up it will work.
02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
The Blood Elves see the High Elves as a betrayal, and hold a grudge against the humans for not coming to aid them when Arthas attacked (although it would have been extremely difficult, considering the state of Lordaeron), but Theron is willing to talk with the Alliance and the Draenei have even formed a strange sort of truce with them as evidenced by the Shattered Sun Offensive.


They hold a grudge not because the Human didn't aid them, it was because the Alliance leader of reclaiming the land from the Scourge was racist and order out strong guards of the Blood Elves while ordering them to do a suicide mission(if it wasn't for the nagas they would've die). They were once again betrayed by the Humans and got shackled in the city they helped the Humans create, Dalaran. It was also them who retook the city from the scourge, I doubt they will ever forgive the Humans after a 2nd time of betrayal.
&
02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
but Theron is willing to talk with the Alliance and the Draenei have even formed a strange sort of truce with them as evidenced by the Shattered Sun Offensive.

Oh, that was the Aldor/Scryers, not Exodar/Silvermoon.

this

02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
The Goblins will follow their profit anywhere, being able to trade directly with all the races would be fantastic for them.

They don't follow where there is profit, you are mixing up the horde goblins with the neutral goblins. As shown in tides of war, Jaina's book only the leader of the goblin has that mind set while the majority of the race don't.

After what happened to Azashara & Ashenvale, I don't think the tree loving Night Elves will simply let it go. The invasion of Ashenvale killed a lot of Night Elves too.

They would join forces to kill off the Legion or any powerful evil, but once that's over it's back to war.
If there is no threat there is no reason for the faction war, which exists because of misunderstandings and old grudges.


When is this myth going to stop being perpetuated?


That statement is entirely true. Both sides have had more chances than I care to count to stop this, but refuse to do so. Even if a real reason comes along once every few wars, it's nothing that couldn't be resolved peacefully if the factions didn't exist.

What of racial tension?What, you expect every Night elf and orc to drop hatred and become allies off the bat?And you think that the Worgen/humans and Forsaken are just drop the who invasion/Lordaeron problem?You have a very optimistic view on the many races.


Racial tension? In other words old grudges, misunderstandings, and differings of opinion that lead to mass war. Hypothetically they would be able to see the value in peace, or at the very least a neutral truce. I'm not expecting them to do it for the good of the world, I'm expecting them to do it to save their own hides. Do you really think the Horde will be in a position to continue this kind of senseless war after having fought in Pandaria, capturing their own capital, and killing their leader?

02/20/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Ximothy
I would prefer the Coalition of Azeroth.


Fine then. I won't argue over terminology.

02/20/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Ximothy
It failed last time. Why would it work now?


What would you suggest? The orcs aren't overtaking Ashenvale, not now nor ever. Unless they want to pack up and move in with the Tauren they have to figure something out.

02/20/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Ximothy
Oh, that was the Aldor/Scryers, not Exodar/Silvermoon.


Regardless it still formed a bond between the two races. As I said, Velen isn't going to have a problem with it and Theron isn't idiotic enough to turn away the people who helped retake the Sunwell, especially when they have no issue with each other.

02/20/2013 04:20 AMPosted by Suwukong
They hold a grudge not because the Human didn't aid them, it was because the Alliance leader of reclaiming the land from the Scourge was racist and order out strong guards of the Blood Elves while ordering them to do a suicide mission(if it wasn't for the nagas they would've die). They were once again betrayed by the Humans and got shackled in the city they helped the Humans create, Dalaran. It was also them who retook the city from the scourge, I doubt they will ever forgive the Humans after a 2nd time of betrayal.


I'm familiar with the story. Forgive me for giving the short answer.

02/20/2013 04:20 AMPosted by Suwukong
They don't follow where there is profit, you are mixing up the horde goblins with the neutral goblins. As shown in tides of war, Jaina's book only the leader of the goblin has that mind set while the majority of the race don't.


Trust me, Gallywix would gladly accept the opprotunity for more trade/profit, and he is completely in charge regarding matters of taxation and state.

You've dissected my statement, but still fail to give a reasoned argument against such an outcome.
I think the game is simply designed around a 2-faction architecture on such a fundamental level that it would be impossible to eliminate the factions completely even if the lore would otherwise support it.

What could happen however is blurring the lines between the factions. We could have neutral factions that are actually joint Horde/Alliance military operations. We could open up cross-faction groups and maybe even raids, at least for new content.
02/20/2013 06:08 AMPosted by Maihray
Racial tension? In other words old grudges, misunderstandings, and differings of opinion that lead to mass war. Hypothetically they would be able to see the value in peace, or at the very least a neutral truce. I'm not expecting them to do it for the good of the world, I'm expecting them to do it to save their own hides. Do you really think the Horde will be in a position to continue this kind of senseless war after having fought in Pandaria, capturing their own capital, and killing their leader?


Wait, wait, wait a minute there.. You're saying that the Night elves anger and hatred against the orcs is an old grudge? Why the fel are you saying that? The orcs have been invading Kaldorei territory and actively killing them for 10 years and in the last two, have started an open and blatant war to exterminate the race and take over all of their land. That's not a old grudge, misunderstanding or a difference of opinion. The orcs are trying to wipe out an entire race and take all of their land. If you think that's a old grudge, misunderstanding or a difference of opinion, then you have something wrong with you.

The Alliance wants peace, but not at the expense of being on the losing end of a war the HORDE started.
02/20/2013 06:08 AMPosted by Maihray
That statement is entirely true. Both sides have had more chances than I care to count to stop this, but refuse to do so. Even if a real reason comes along once every few wars, it's nothing that couldn't be resolved peacefully if the factions didn't exist.


Right now, the only way the war could stop now is if the Alliance just outright surrendered to the Horde. The Horde certainly isn't going to stop fighting now. The Horde is the main driving force behind this war. All the Alliance is doing is trying to drive off their attackers and protect home, family and nation.
02/20/2013 09:27 AMPosted by Kynrind
Right now, the only way the war could stop now is if the Alliance just outright surrendered to the Horde.

Or if the Horde rebels overthrew Garrosh and put a moratorium on hostilities.

Or if anyone decided they were unable or unwilling to continue fighting.

Or if anyone realized any potential gain from the war was overshadowed by its costs.

Or if the Burning Legion showed up and people realized they couldn't afford to keep fighting.

Right now, the only way this flamewar could stop is if people stopped mindlessly sensationalizing and flinging around this tired tripe.
02/20/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Maihray
The Worgen have a great deal against the Forsaken, but they live with the Night Elves now, and again should be able to see the value in peace.


So basically you think they are willing to give up Gilneas because they live in refuge with elves? I really doubt that..
If Blizzard wants the Horde and Alliance to come together in as... aw hell, let's call it "Army of Light" because it sounds pretty cool, then guess what?

Blizzard will make whatever changes it needs to make to the factions for any old hatreds/grudges/misunderstandings disappear/take a back seat or whatever else in order to move the story forward with the Alliance and Horde united as one.

02/20/2013 11:48 AMPosted by Gollard
The Worgen have a great deal against the Forsaken, but they live with the Night Elves now, and again should be able to see the value in peace.


So basically you think they are willing to give up Gilneas because they live in refuge with elves? I really doubt that..


Well, the worgen are now citizens of Darnassus and Kalimdor, since we see more worgen there then anywhere else since the forests of Kalimdor are sacred to them, the worgen will stay there, while the Gilnean humans will take back Gilneas since you can bet that without Garrosh pushing Sylvanas that whoever the new warchief is will order her to stop, Gilneas is reclaimed by the Alliance, and maybe see a new wall built.
02/20/2013 11:51 AMPosted by Fuliculi
Blizzard will make whatever changes it needs to make to the factions for any old hatreds/grudges/misunderstandings disappear/take a back seat or whatever else in order to move the story forward with the Alliance and Horde united as one.


If by changes you mean the Alliance will forget, yeah.
02/20/2013 04:20 AMPosted by Suwukong
They hold a grudge not because the Human didn't aid them, it was because the Alliance leader of reclaiming the land from the Scourge was racist and order out strong guards of the Blood Elves while ordering them to do a suicide mission


They were given a difficult mission and their hardass CO was mean to them. Cry me a river.

02/20/2013 04:20 AMPosted by Suwukong
They were once again betrayed by the Humans and got shackled in the city they helped the Humans create, Dalaran. It was also them who retook the city from the scourge


It was Garithos who retook the city, not the Blood Elves.

And you're forgetting that it's the Elves who betrayed the Humans first, not the other way around.

02/20/2013 06:08 AMPosted by Maihray
That statement is entirely true. Both sides have had more chances than I care to count to stop this, but refuse to do so. Even if a real reason comes along once every few wars, it's nothing that couldn't be resolved peacefully if the factions didn't exist.


Oh sure. Except the Alliance's "chances" to stop this have all come in the form of "surrender and give the Horde whatever it wants."

It cannot be resolved peacefully without some radical change in the Horde. That's why we're making a radical change at the end of this expansion.
02/20/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Vyrin
They were given a difficult mission and their hardass CO was mean to them. Cry me a river.
They were given a suicide mission by a CO trying to get them killed. A CO who then decided that he had the authority to order the execution of the head of a foreign nation and his entire retinue for "treasonously" completing his mission.
02/20/2013 12:11 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
They were given a suicide mission by a CO trying to get them killed.


They were given a suicide mission by a CO who could've had them killed any time before that, in a scenario where every mission was effectively a suicide mission.

Again, cry me a river.

02/20/2013 12:11 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
A CO who then decided that he had the authority to order the execution of the head of a foreign nation and his entire retinue for "treasonously" completing his mission.


For defying direct orders and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. "But I'm a Prince!" doesn't exempt you from the law.
For defying direct orders and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. "But I'm a Prince!" doesn't exempt you from the law.


If he broke a law he should have been tried in Silvermoon. It's an alliance, not an empire.

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