Hope for the Scrubs lol

Kil'jaeden
Zzz 10 man vs 25 man arguments.. Both have pros and cons that eventually equal out. Calm down, Gnome.

Edit: The baseline of this topic is cancerous. Can we all give a little less !@#$ about what other people do?


Don't you tell me to calm down troll. And its more of wanting a little incentive than caring what other people do. I think 10 man raiding is great but something to separate the two would be nice. Not even gear maybe just some exclusive mounts that can drop or something.


The "incentive", is that some people like raiding in a larger group, and some prefer a smaller group. The point of having the two options is to cater to a preference, not difficulty or rewards. I can safely say that 90% of people that raid even semi-seriously raid for the experience, not for pixels(though it is a nice bonus :D).
I remember when a new raid would come out, when no one in the world could even do it because they hadn't cleared the previous raid in order to get attuned for the next one. For example, when black temple came out, no one could even do it for the first 2 weeks because no one had killed kael'thas yet.

I also remember pre-nerf Muru, the guild killer.


Blizzard is trying to make the content more difficult than in recent times (wotlk/cata), yet still keep it some what accessible. The reason there will never be any insane-crazy-hard-almost-impossible content anymore is because it's a waste to pour a lot of development into something only seen by a tiny minority. Wiping on Vael pre-nerf for weeks and being discouraged that you can't get past the second boss in the new raid, when you have to get 40 people to collaborate for 3 measly pieces of loot just isn't fun. Or wiping on C'thun for months when it was actually impossible to kill until the first fix/nerf.

One thing to consider, a lot of these old school fights were insanely hard not by design, but by bugs and an inexperienced Blizzard. They didn't have PTR's where they let just anyone come on and test all the raid content for months before they push it to live. Plus they were awful at balancing encounters. Sunwell is one of the biggest examples of this. Every fight required a totally different comp. You go from Eredar Twins where most guilds at first were running with 9, 10, even 11 and 12 healers, to Muru that required no more than 4, and even then it was an insanely tight DPS check.

Things change, and I think if they stayed on the road of an imbalanced hard meta game it wouldn't have seen the success that is has.
That doesn't change the fact that if you raid 25m right now you almost feel punished for doing so. I will agree with you that, for myself at least, I raid 25m because it is more enjoyable. My point is that it is a lot of extra work and effort to do so, not to mention that you can bank on having worse progression than a comparable 10m guild (especialy for casual or semi-casual groups). So why not at least level the playing field?
02/20/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Amaxas
That doesn't change the fact that if you raid 25m right now you almost feel punished for doing so. I will agree with you that, for myself at least, I raid 25m because it is more enjoyable. My point is that it is a lot of extra work and effort to do so, not to mention that you can bank on having worse progression than a comparable 10m guild (especialy for casual or semi-casual groups). So why not at least level the playing field?


Your argument is an out dated look at things that ended with Ulduar. I think people who raid 25 mans tell them self (and others) that 25 mans are harder just to make them self feel more accomplished. I've raided both 10 and 25 mans all through Cata and most encounters I felt were actually easier in 25. There are a few fights that are the exception. The biggest challenge in 25 man raiding is getting the people. It is a much bigger logistics challenge.

Why so frumpy tho? 25 man raids get perks in 5.2.
Blizzard is trying to make the content more difficult than in recent times (wotlk/cata), yet still keep it some what accessible. The reason there will never be any insane-crazy-hard-almost-impossible content anymore is because it's a waste to pour a lot of development into something only seen by a tiny minority. Wiping on Vael pre-nerf for weeks and being discouraged that you can't get past the second boss in the new raid, when you have to get 40 people to collaborate for 3 measly pieces of loot just isn't fun. Or wiping on C'thun for months when it was actually impossible to kill until the first fix/nerf.


The fact that C'thun was just mathematically impossible is epic. In regards to your discussion there really is no arguing that legitimate fights (excluding bugs and balance issues) are more difficult now than they were then. They have to be more difficult now because we've been playing for almost a decade. Looking back we like to think things were harder then, but in reality if you think on it hard enough you can distinctively remember silly things like people failing to C'thun's eye beam.

The logical progression of content will lead to it consistently getting more difficult and people (hopefully at the same rate) getting better at the game. This is completely ignoring guilds like Paragon and Blood Legion etc.. who are doing these fights wayyy under-geared. The things that they do with 2-3 healers to push DPS breakpoints is honestly pretty amazing. The fact that they are able to do that because literally not a single person in the raid is taking avoidable damage is even more amazing. I'm not talking about not stepping in a wind bomb, I mean that first tick of damage from chains on Stone Guard, that doesn't happen in their raids AT ALL.
I solo'd C'thun today. Didn't really see what was so hard about it.
Your argument is an out dated look at things that ended with Ulduar. I think people who raid 25 mans tell them self (and others) that 25 mans are harder just to make them self feel more accomplished. I've raided both 10 and 25 mans all through Cata and most encounters I felt were actually easier in 25. There are a few fights that are the exception. The biggest challenge in 25 man raiding is getting the people. It is a much bigger logistics challenge.


Honestly I would agree that they were easier in parts of cata. This content patch hasn't been close though. And I am very excited about the loot changes :P. A little disappointed we don't see some super cheesed lightening incorporated into the thunderforged loot but you know, can't be too picky :P.
02/20/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Amaxas
Looking back we like to think things were harder then, but in reality if you think on it hard enough you can distinctively remember silly things like people failing to C'thun's eye beam.


Totally true. A lot of people are nostalgia blind. Fights now are seriously far more complex than in Vanilla/BC. If you took say heroic Rag 2.0 (pre nerf, hell even post nerf) and went back in time and dropped that somewhere in AQ40 or BWL, players would have a heart attack. Times change, players evolve. People tend to hold their fondest memories to a higher degree.
ilu amaxas
02/20/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Chillbros
ilu amaxas


<3
Woohoo Pve'rs sounding like PvP'r's! Come on guys let's rumble like the big boys!

On a semi serious note though...done both 10 and 25. 10 is joke and 25 tougher in content and keep running.

Now let's go fight outside Stormwind!
I can heal 2 maybe 3 frost mages, going to make a video of it later and tell you all about my big heal macros and how to take them from 0 to full in one heal. Going to try to go for R1 gnome with the season ending soon. Transferring off server so I can get my rep up with some big shot MT's, not that I'm not good enough to do it here, I just don't want to.

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