Deeply Flawed PvP Design

Battlegrounds
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Causal players should be able to enjoy a game where all users start off at equal footing, where they compete and achieve victory through their individual skills and team's synergy.

To my knowledge, no one has yet to suggested that: Instead of replace the current pvp system you add to it. Why not have a separate interface where players can compete with normalized gear. The fact of the mater is two parties existed, one of whom welcomes normalized battlegrounds and the other who opposes it.

Has not Blizzard demonstrated the ability to created new venues of game play for their divers consumer base. Need I remind you of Arenas, Rated Battlegrounds, Looking for Raid, and the new Dungeon Challenge Mode. All these new systems did not replace the original interfaces. Is it so hard to extend this trend to created separate normalized battlegrounds?

As to those who question the logistics of this suggested interface, I answer. Upon agreeing to enter a normalized battleground your gear is normalized like in Dungeon Challenge Mode, you forfeit the ability to earn Honor or Conquest Points. However you are will still able to earn pvp achievements, accumulate honorable kills, and reputation with respective pvp factions.

In Short
Problem: Casuals players want to enjoy pvp solely on playing ability alone.
Solution: New separate normalized Battlegrounds.
No.

Even if Bliz decided to follow your advice, diffferent classes have different strengths and weaknesses. So if you queue up to a BG or RBG and come across a team with a better composition, you are still going to lose.

Unless, of course, you follow your argument to its conclusion and just have one class with the same available skills.

Oh, and Bliz sends them all PCs with the same specs.

And tucks them in at night so they all have the proper amount of sleep so they can comptete at optimum levels.

typical rogue response

/facepalm


Not sure why people are against this unless they want to stay ahead of the curve due to an early start.


its an mmo not a fps. gear grind is here to stay.
To my knowledge, no one has yet to suggested that: Instead of replace the current pvp system you add to it. Why not have a separate interface where players can compete with normalized gear
It has been suggested and I agree it would work.... in Wargames. Give everyone normalized gear in Wargames, create an MMR similar to RBGs & hand out titles & cosmetic awards at certain ranks. Everyone is happy, problem solved.

However when I suggest this I might get 1-2 responses & that is it. Why? Because the players that say "skill not gear" really want a handout. The "skill not gear" mantra is just a very bad smoke screen intended to hide their true motives, which is free gear.
I can agree that there maybe be players who want handouts. However, I disagree that this discussion was inspired by those interests.

It has been stated in various ways, that pvp is hard to begin at the middle or end of a pvp season. This is evident with the changes Blizzards is making in the next patch. Should a player be force to play a toon apart from their other charters because they enjoy pvp but don't want to fall behind in gear? Is it so wrong for players to voice their frustrations on the mater without being seen as lazy?
And Sir - you obviously don't understand the word "competitive" if you are advocating a reset so everyone can be touchy feely happy. If anything, the fact that you have to work harder to catch up to those who have worked in the past to achieve their gear is the height of copetitive-enhancing game mechanics.

But, you want what amounts to a "do over" because you didn't work as hard as some others. Sorry. I don't believe in entitlements.


A "do over" happens every season. And you don't understand competitive online gameplay if you think one team starting a match with much better gear creates a fair competitive environment. If you beat me you should beat me because you are a better player and not because you are a whole tier of gear ahead of me.

You aren't proving you are better. You are proving you are better geared.

02/20/2013 03:52 AMPosted by Kiaransali
Still, the facts suggest that, barring significant gear disparities, knowledge and execution (skill) trumps gear.


Yeah, he makes this claim but doesn't back it up. And frankly it's bull!@#$ because we all know what happens to a freshly dinged lv 90 who enters a BG or Arena match. They get curb stomped. You aren't owning anyone as a fresh lv 90.

02/20/2013 03:52 AMPosted by Kiaransali
4. While I personally think that they're cool for a lot of reasons, aesthetic only rewards aren't really the best option, because there are power increasing rewards being handed out in PvE that would quickly over-shadow PvP gear if there was no power progression.


He is comparing the PvP aspect of the game to the PvE which is stupid. PvP brackets should be determined by skill but they are determined by gear as much as skill. Obviously a better skilled player will win their matches and get better gear but as they get better gear and face off against opponents who might just now be starting the season they will win. That's not fair to start handicapped.

Talk about weak arguments. My time is at least as important as yours & as Blizzard has stated they want to reward players that put in the time & effort. It has nothing to do with being afraid of competition... I challenge you to gear up & meet me on the battlefield in equal gear. However I don't believe you are entitled to that gear without earning it.


I mentioned nothing of your time or how you spend it. I mentioned that Blizzard constantly makes things readily available that used to be difficult to get so arguing that you worked for it hence it's unfair isn't something that deters Blizzard from making the change. I also insinuated that the real reason you don't want this change is it would increase your competition and make it harder for you to stay at the top.

I strongly suggest that you go read them... please show me where they are instituting gear normalization. Wow is a progression based game... and there are many very good reasons why. Your idea is inherently flawed and not a viable option.


The low level brackets will normalize character levels so that if you are level 81 and enter a BG you will be lv 89 for all intents and purposes while in the BG. Read the patch notes.

You are also entirely discounting team composition and stategy as elements of a win.

So you are either implying that given equal gear you are just as good as the best team out there (I doubt it) and that every team follows plan X in a given BG or arena (they don't).

What you are also saying is that you can't make up for slight gear defeciencies with greater skill, strategy or team makeup. What you are saying is you aren't better then the other team.


This is a pretty large strawman argument. If you are so awesome, go equip greens and try to win rated matches. Gear doesn't matter right? Hell, just play with the crafted blues available as a starter set. Go play against people in epic glad gear. Let me know how awesome you do.
No offense but this borders on rhetoric. It's like a catchy political slogan that sounds great, but when you dig deeper it seems more like empty rhetoric. Yes conceptually speaking PvP should be about skill, but there is much more to the equation.


If you feel that saying "PvP is based on skill progression rather than gear progression" is simply 'rhetoric' then you have no clue what true competition is.

I just don't understand how someone thinks it's okay for one team to start the match with a huge disadvantage and call that fair play, and say that with a straight face to boot??

Forget current PvP. Come next expansion when the level cap is 95 (or 100) you're going to have to grind for gear all over again. I am saying gear should not play a factor in competitive PvP at all. I should queue in at level cap and have the same stats as any other druid with the same spec as me. Every frost mage should have the same stats as any other frost mage, etc.

Which team wins? Obviously the most skilled one.

With the exception of really high tiers (ie top 10%) that is not the case today. The better geared team will win the majority of the time. Want to prove me wrong? Go hit a 2200 rating in nothing but the starter PvP blues. Seriously. If skill > gear you should be able to no problem.

Blizzard has already implemented gear normalization in challenge modes. Come Patch 5.2 Blizzard will implement character stat normalization for lower levels of PvP (lv 10 - lv 89). Blizzard also has acknowledged that the gear gap is a significant problem and deterent for both casual players and new players hence the upcoming changes to gear acquisition in Patch 5.2
The thing is; all this arguing is over an issue that is already being resolved in a fashion that everyone wins.

Talk about beating on a dead horse.
Blizzard has already implemented gear normalization in challenge modes. Come Patch 5.2 Blizzard will implement character stat normalization for lower levels of PvP (lv 10 - lv 89). Blizzard also has acknowledged that the gear gap is a significant problem and deterent for both casual players and new players hence the upcoming changes to gear acquisition in Patch 5.2




http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7909591267#5

Their stance on it.

And even in other games where normalization is present, classes are still disgustingly imbalanced.

Remember, gear based game. The only thing reasonable is to ease the process.
If you feel that saying "PvP is based on skill progression rather than gear progression" is simply 'rhetoric' then you have no clue what true competition is.
Answering rhetoric with yet more rhetoric only makes you look even less credible, if that were possible. I have explained in excruciating detail why gear normalization is a very bad idea. Blizzard explained in excruciating detail why progression is the best model. You obviously don't care about this & steadfastly keep your head in the sand. Obviously the facts are very much in the way of your opinions.
02/20/2013 06:27 PMPosted by Kiaransali
If you feel that saying "PvP is based on skill progression rather than gear progression" is simply 'rhetoric' then you have no clue what true competition is.
Answering rhetoric with yet more rhetoric only makes you look even less credible, if that were possible. I have explained in excruciating detail why gear normalization is a very bad idea. Blizzard explained in excruciating detail why progression is the best model. You obviously don't care about this & steadfastly keep your head in the sand. Obviously the facts are very much in the way of your opinions.


Now you're making stuff up. Blizzard didn't explain in 'excruciating detail' anything. They made statements then didn't bother to back them up.

"We feel that skill trumps gear."

"We feel that gear progression is what players want."

"Gear progression is a part of WoW."

That's not 'excruciating detail'. Those are just blanket statements. And I don't think you know what rhetoric is because you are throwing the word around in a way that doesn't make sense.

What's funny is you have ignored the charge about a level playing field - which is all any of us were advocating. You are, at the end of the day, completely against it.

And even in other games where normalization is present, classes are still disgustingly imbalanced.


I'd like to know which games they are talking about. Most games end up being fairly well balanced after a couple of patches - which means in under 6 months.

However when I suggest this I might get 1-2 responses & that is it. Why? Because the players that say "skill not gear" really want a handout. The "skill not gear" mantra is just a very bad smoke screen intended to hide their true motives, which is free gear.


This nonsense here lets me know you haven't read a single reply clearly. Or your reading comprehension sucks. At what point is, "eliminate gear" via normalization equate to, "free gear"??
This season's Gear Upgrade grind was a mess beyond messes. Nonsense like that needs to be culled completely - but this is still a gear-driven game.

Or, really, it's an RPG. RPGs are about character growth. "RPG Elements", so popular in games these days, are about... something, ANYTHING that makes your character stronger at the end of the current level/stage/battle than your character was before it happened.

It's not just levels.

You reforge. You enchant. You slot gems. You choose which stats to focus on - which things you need - what pieces of gear you want when you are given a choice. You caaaarefully get your Hit as close to the 90 cap as possible without going under. You do professions specifically for personal boosts.

You don't necessarily play to get gear - but, as you play, you get more gear and then keep playing with that gear.

When you hit max-level, you aren't done. You don't get to go, whoop, here I am, Super-Shaman/Rogue/DK/Warrior! I'm already as good as aaaaaaany other member of my class. Even those people who have been like this for months! Really, you're pretty much just starting to build up your character.

All that is part of the PvE game. Not just defeating the dragon in an elaborate dance-sequence - but how you prepared for that dragon - and how you will now take that dragon's loot and use it to prepare for the bigger dragon.

When you add PvP to a game like that, the whole point is to take this character you built up and pit it against characters other people built up. The winner is decided both by how well you can handle them - and by who prepared better and built up the character more.

You cut it out of the PvP game entirely - and you really and truly do turn PvP into a minigame. Something that doesn't matter remotely. Something that has nothing to do with character growth. Something where your character does NOT grow more powerful thanks to past experiences. It'll be like pet-battles - except with less rewards (selling extra Pandaren Elementals on the AH can make you some money, you know) and with you controlling what technically looks like your character.

Not to mention how participation will plummet. PvP is not just about the gear - but it's also not just about winning yet another Warsong Gulch or EOTS and getting nothing but self-satisfaction. Rewards are a part of this sort of game. Even modern FPS games institute some sort of rewards for consistent players.
02/20/2013 08:56 PMPosted by Kalycto
What's funny is you have ignored the charge about a level playing field - which is all any of us were advocating. You are, at the end of the day, completely against it.
There is a huge difference between trying to strike a balance between rewarding players that invest the time to gear up and at the same time not making the gap insurmountable for lesser geared players (which is what Blizzard is doing in 5.2) vs. artificially creating balance (and causing a slew of nasty unintended consequences), which is exactly what your idea would do.

You're right I am completely against your idea... it would be a train wreck. I am not against striking a balance as described above (I am all for it).

02/20/2013 08:56 PMPosted by Kalycto
This nonsense here lets me know you haven't read a single reply clearly. Or your reading comprehension sucks. At what point is, "eliminate gear" via normalization equate to, "free gear"??
Wow dude you are either really slow or trolling. I have read all of your replies and haven't seen a single reason how your idea would improve anything. Normalization would be free gear, albeit temporary (basically a rental). The only "nonsense" is that I offered an option that would allow you to prove your "skill" and you weren't interested. I wonder why?
02/20/2013 10:40 PMPosted by Sylassanna
Something where your character does NOT grow more powerful thanks to past experiences


Players will get better. Download appropriate addons, create appropriate macros, learn to coordinate with their teammates better, etc.

Wow dude you are either really slow or trolling. I have read all of your replies and haven't seen a single reason how your idea would improve anything. Normalization would be free gear, albeit temporary (basically a rental). The only "nonsense" is that I offered an option that would allow you to prove your "skill" and you weren't interested. I wonder why?


Normalization eliminates gear entirely. And you haven't offered any options to prove anything.

02/21/2013 05:30 AMPosted by Kiaransali
There is a huge difference between trying to strike a balance between rewarding players that invest the time to gear up and at the same time not making the gap insurmountable for lesser geared players (which is what Blizzard is doing in 5.2) vs. artificially creating balance (and causing a slew of nasty unintended consequences), which is exactly what your idea would do.


There are no unintended consequences. More people would participate in PvP and we would get a better reflection of who truly is the best.

Do I think that would be me? I can try but if I ended up at the bottom I wouldn't care. At least I tried and new I just suck and needed to improve my skill. Now, it's just getting owned over and over and when I go check out the people on armory sure enough they are in epics while I'm in my blues. Awesome.

Even modern FPS games institute some sort of rewards for consistent players.


Yeah and those rewards are trivial and meaningless. You don't walk away with some uber weapon that is so good it becomes mandatory for anyone to succeed in the game.

You are making a pretty large assumption that PvP will become a mini-game.
02/21/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Kalycto
Normalization eliminates gear entirely. And you haven't offered any options to prove anything.
Yea direct quotes from Blizzard on why the progression model is the best model was "nothing". Clearly you are totally close-minded and I am wasting my time. Ever hear the saying "conviction is the enemy of the truth"? That applies to you.

02/21/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Kalycto
There are no unintended consequences.
Wow, just wow. I listed numerous unintended consequences, as did Blizzard. You are beyond hope.

02/21/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Kalycto
More people would participate in PvP and we would get a better reflection of who truly is the best.
If you cared one bit about proving skill you would have liked the Wargames suggestion. You showed no interest in that suggestion, which tells me your actual motives have nothing to do with proving your skill.
If you cared one bit about proving skill you would have liked the Wargames suggestion. You showed no interest in that suggestion, which tells me your actual motives have nothing to do with proving your skill


Projecting yourself onto others again. They're entitled to their opinion and do not have to like what you like to prove anything.

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