PvP is Fine.

Battlegrounds
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Basically progression with a balance struck between rewarding players that put forth the effort and players that aren't well geared is the way to go.
02/24/2013 03:42 AMPosted by Yukkon
You see these elite geared players going into random bgs and wiping the other team. They deserve to do that


Why do they deserve that? I read this and just sigh. Just because you can work with a small group up to 5 people and beat another team does not mean that you should get special treatment in another form of pvp. player skill should be what makes the difference in a kill or death not your gear. Saying people should be allowed to steamroll others because they have the better gear so it is their right is just idiocy. Everyone earns their gear in pvp the only differences are group size and currency.
What's all this talk of progression in wow? It should be about outplaying people, nothing more nothing less. I don't play league of legends BECAUSE of its progression. A levelling up race.. wow no thanks.
02/24/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Liquidsteak
Why do they deserve that? I read this and just sigh. Just because you can work with a small group up to 5 people and beat another team does not mean that you should get special treatment in another form of pvp. player skill should be what makes the difference in a kill or death not your gear. Saying people should be allowed to steamroll others because they have the better gear so it is their right is just idiocy. Everyone earns their gear in pvp the only differences are group size and currency.
There is no "special treatment". That's like saying earning a college degree and getting a better job than a guy that dropped out of high school is "special treatment". What you are insinuating (a handout for poorly geared players) would be actual special treatment.
02/24/2013 04:33 PMPosted by Zod
What's all this talk of progression in wow? It should be about outplaying people, nothing more nothing less. I don't play league of legends BECAUSE of its progression. A levelling up race.. wow no thanks.
As I have explained a zillion times this is a very simplistic view of a complex issue. There are valid reasons why progression is the best system and the alternatives suggested (like gear normalization) just wouldn't work. Here are the specifics as to why progression is the best model:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993742
02/24/2013 04:34 PMPosted by Kiaransali
Why do they deserve that? I read this and just sigh. Just because you can work with a small group up to 5 people and beat another team does not mean that you should get special treatment in another form of pvp. player skill should be what makes the difference in a kill or death not your gear. Saying people should be allowed to steamroll others because they have the better gear so it is their right is just idiocy. Everyone earns their gear in pvp the only differences are group size and currency.
There is no "special treatment". That's like saying earning a college degree and getting a better job than a guy that dropped out of high school is "special treatment". What you are insinuating (a handout for poorly geared players) would be actual special treatment.


So then it just boils down to this, what is a battleground to you? Sure, I think there should be arena progression, whether it be gear or asthetic rewards is debatable.

But what is a battleground to you? Is it some FEEDING GROUND in which elite conquest geared players can join in with other friends and completely wreck the opossing faction?

Or is it a place where you're meant to- NO, WHERE YOU HAVE to grind honor to EVEN BEGIN to try and arena?
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These people are trying to get their honor. In a RANDOM BATTLEGROUND.
-To say that "The guy that dropped out of highschool wants special treatment" is completely false. A more accurate analogy:

"College kid gets his degree. Then, after graduating, he proceeds to work at McDonalds, where he trash talks everyone else that works there, because he's obviously better than them"

-You know why? Because thats exactly what these elitists are doing. Theyve done the arenas. theyve done the RBG's, they have their gear. Now what are they doing? Their going into the lowest form of organized PVP and facerolling people. Why?

What about doing this is fun? You can't even legitimately say you're better than anyone in that BG when you beat them, it was your gear.

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All this creates is an environment where an already displeasing honor grind becomes so UNBEARABLE, that you have the same problem with people botting that you do now

Heroic Dg's are for people trying to gear up for raiding correct? You wouldnt put a random, unbeatable raid boss smack dab in the middle of that dungeon would you? But hey, that raid boss deserves to c***smack you doesnt he? because hes been in that dungeon longer than you have and you have no business trying to gear up for a raid.

I cant even believe this is an arguement.
02/24/2013 04:33 PMPosted by Zod
What's all this talk of progression in wow? It should be about outplaying people, nothing more nothing less. I don't play league of legends BECAUSE of its progression. A levelling up race.. wow no thanks.

Again, it's been stated over and over again. Some people will enjoy it. But you have to think about the majority involved. MMO players in general prefer gear progression, that's apparent. WoW will always have gear progression on both sides because of how the affect one another. They want people earning and anticipating new gear to keep players interested.

Now all this said, that doesn't mean we can't get better balance in pvp than we have now with the gear progression system. Gear needs to matter enough to encourage players to keep playing, but I don't think it should be as lop-sided as it is now (we'll see how the 5.2 experiment helps this.) What the game desperately needs imo is different rulesets in pvp. They already do it in extreme cases (Colossus smash 50% vs players, Frost bomb -20% vs players etc.) but more abilities could use similar treatment.

A big issue I've had with wow in the past is how they try to balance pvp and pve at the same time. They refuse to adjust damage values, so they have to adjust how the class is played in both scenarios, and this often leads to having to re-learn and often play the class differently (Warrior class says hello.) Not only can it be frustrating, but at the same time can make the class much less enjoyable.
02/24/2013 04:50 PMPosted by Stunshine
All this creates is an environment where an already displeasing honor grind becomes so UNBEARABLE, that you have the same problem with people botting that you do now


Honor grind doesn't even take that long. In fact, some refuse to buy contender's gear because of it being replaced so quickly.

It only took me a week to get all of my expensive pieces on my alt.

02/24/2013 04:50 PMPosted by Stunshine
Heroic Dg's are for people trying to gear up for raiding correct? You wouldnt put a random, unbeatable raid boss smack dab in the middle of that dungeon would you? But hey, that raid boss deserves to c***smack you doesnt he? because hes been in that dungeon longer than you have and you have no business trying to gear up for a raid.


You're comparing PvE to PvP. Against an NPC, where it takes smart play and knowledge of the fight to beat it. What kind of argument is this?
02/24/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Kiaransali
What's all this talk of progression in wow? It should be about outplaying people, nothing more nothing less. I don't play league of legends BECAUSE of its progression. A levelling up race.. wow no thanks.
As I have explained a zillion times this is a very simplistic view of a complex issue. There are valid reasons why progression is the best system and the alternatives suggested (like gear normalization) just wouldn't work. Here are the specifics as to why progression is the best model:


Oh, you like premades too, in random battlegrounds.

Well, doesnt that make sense.

All I see from people like you is:
1. You're too afraid to get stomped in any sort of actual "Competitive" environment.
2. You're the type of player that gets his T2 weapon, and then proceeds to faceroll random bg's whilst streaming to show the world how good you are.

A handout to undergeared players? No Sir.
What I'm suggesting is an ilvl normalization. I.E. A barrier to keep over tuned players out of what is essentially a training ground for new players. You're not giving undergeared players anything, Your reducing the ilvl of 491 conquest geared players to that of an upgraded dreadful set.

Much like when your item level is normalized upon entering a challenge mode dungeon. Because thats essentially what you're doing.

In fact, the only people getting a free handout are the overgeared players entering the battleground. May not be much more than a bit of conquest and a crapton of honor for motes, but its a hell of alot more than the undergeared team is getting.

If youre actually the Pro player you're gear makes you out to be, having your gear "normalized" to a 466 ilvl wouldnt stop you from taking an easy win against some lowbies?


You're comparing PvE to PvP. Against an NPC, where it takes smart play and knowledge of the fight to beat it. What kind of argument is this?


You tell me exactly how much knowledge it takes for a Full malv (not even upgraded) ANYTHING to kill someone who hasn't so much as completed his dreadful set.

You're right, I am comparing the two. At the very least, a heroic dungeon requires a certain ilvl before joining.

A random battleground can take a freshly dinged 90 in questing greens and pit him up against a T2 2/2 player.

You're absolutely right, in a PVP scenario it can be much, much worse.

EDIT: Oh man, I'm sorry, I read your post and I assumed you meant the smart play and knowledge against another player in PVP. You were talking about the NPC!

In that case, you tell me EXACTLY how you make a smart play against an NPC, something thats going to do the same scripted sequence over and over. Lol. That gave me a good laugh. Knowledge yes, But dg's and raiding, you either did what you were supposed to do or you didnt. Its an art of perfecting one's execution, but theres no "outplaying" an NPC.

That would imply that the NPC is making some sort of error?
02/24/2013 04:50 PMPosted by Stunshine
I cant even believe this is an arguement.

Kiar isn't known for eloquence. Perhaps I can elaborate on it a little bit. The argument is pretty simple. MMORPGs want players wanting and anticipating that next piece of gear, so their character can become even stronger. This is how this genre works and how Blizzard wants the game to work. If you start punishing players for having put in extra effort, you're going to start upsetting your players quite a bit. This is why the system works how it does. Is it fair? Depends on your definition, and you'd also have to ask the question: Would it be fair that a player couldn't use the gear they earned?

5.2 should make things easier. Right now players can sit on 491 ilvl and fight people in normal battlegrounds who are < 450. But keep in mind this has a lot to do with it being the beginning season. In 5.2 players can only go from 491 to 493 while the bottom end starts at 458 (crafted) and 476 honor gear (keep in mind the 476 gear is budgeted to be competitive with 491.)

My only advice is to get a good start in a pvp season and it'll be much more enjoyable. Especially the starting season of an expansion.
I cant even believe this is an arguement.

Kiar isn't known for eloquence. Perhaps I can elaborate on it a little bit. The argument is pretty simple. MMORPGs want players wanting and anticipating that next piece of gear, so their character can become even stronger. This is how this genre works and how Blizzard wants the game to work. If you start punishing players for having put in extra effort, you're going to start upsetting your players quite a bit. This is why the system works how it does. Is it fair? Depends on your definition, and you'd also have to ask the question: Would it be fair that a player couldn't use the gear they earned?

5.2 should make things easier. Right now players can sit on 491 ilvl and fight people in normal battlegrounds who are < 450. But keep in mind this has a lot to do with it being the beginning season. In 5.2 players can only go from 491 to 493 while the bottom end goes starts at 458 (crafted) and 476 honor gear (keep in mind the 476 gear is budgeted to be competitive with 491.)

My only advice is to get a good start in a pvp season and it'll be much more enjoyable. Especially the starting season of an expansion.


You're smart and reasonable, so Ill stop arguing with numbnuts and propose this to you.

You said "is it fair for a player to not be able to use the gear they earned"
So I ask, In a challenge mode dg, is it not fair for a heroic 510 geared team to join up and faceroll that dungeon for an easy gold medal?
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand what I'm getting at. PVE and PVP are different. Challenge modes have their rewards just like battlegrounds.
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So, in retrospect, I should be able to take my ridonculously geared lock and get that xmog set easy sauce with the gear that I earned.

Because although we may not be comparing PVE and PVP directly, we're speaking about gear progression on both fronts, and the balancing of such.

I earned the gear, Whether it be pvp or pve. So how would you balance it?

EDIT: Because as of live, The Super geared PVP players can queue up random bg's and TAKE wins. RIGHTFULLY SO!

But the poor poor raiders cant get that xmog, because blizzard normalized their gear. SUCH BASTARDS. We have a dilemma here?
02/24/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Stunshine
In that case, you tell me EXACTLY how you make a smart play against an NPC, something thats going to do the same scripted sequence over and over. Lol. That gave me a good laugh. Knowledge yes, But dg's and raiding, you either did what you were supposed to do or you didnt. Its an art of perfecting one's execution, but theres no "outplaying" an NPC.


Fight mechanics?

Knowing what to do in a phase?

Common sense?

Staying out of an AoE that can one shot a raid?

Do not compare an NPC to a human player controlling a character.

And even with my undergeared lock at the time, I still learned how to be effective and play a huge part in winning a game.

I got rolled a lot, but it never stopped me. That rewarding feeling I got from giving a geared player a hard time.

I don't have any toons in full Malv, but I don't sit, get angry and lash out at the ones who are better equipped than me.

Difference between sets should be lessened, but gear is what this game is about.

02/24/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Stunshine
so Ill stop arguing with numbnuts


Was trying to keep some respect here. But reading this tells me otherwise.
In that case, you tell me EXACTLY how you make a smart play against an NPC, something thats going to do the same scripted sequence over and over. Lol. That gave me a good laugh. Knowledge yes, But dg's and raiding, you either did what you were supposed to do or you didnt. Its an art of perfecting one's execution, but theres no "outplaying" an NPC.


Fight mechanics?

Knowing what to do in a phase?

Common sense?

Staying out of an AoE that can one shot a raid?

Do not compare an NPC to a human player controlling a character.

And even with my undergeared lock at the time, I still learned how to be effective and play a huge part in winning a game.

I got rolled a lot, but it never stopped me. That rewarding feeling I got from giving a geared player a hard time.

I don't have any toons in full Malv, but I don't sit, get angry and lash out at the ones who are better equipped than me.

Difference between sets should be lessened, but gear is what this game is about.

so Ill stop arguing with numbnuts


Was trying to keep some respect here. But reading this tells me otherwise.


You listed 6 different forms of "Knowing" a fight.

You did not once tell me how exactly do you "outplay" an NPC.

EDIT: For the record, I was talking about the mage. You know, the one endorsing premades as well.
You listed 6 different forms of "Knowing" a fight.

You did not once tell me how exactly do you "outplay" an NPC.


Then you're ignoring what I implied. An NPC does set actions it's programmed to do. The raid is suppose to know how to take it out.

You're comparing that to an actual player, who can think and plan what to do against another.

I think that explains enough.
You said "is it fair for a player to not be able to use the gear they earned"
So I ask, In a challenge mode dg, is it not fair for a heroic 510 geared team to join up and faceroll that dungeon for an easy gold medal?

Well challenge modes are not intended to be outgeared. It's not a proper comparison. The closest thing to maybe compare challenge mode with would be the Arena tournament realm or arena tournaments. Everyone is given the exact same set of gear to pick from. This isn't how battlegrounds work.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a gear throttle system in pvp to keep things a little more competitive, but I don't see it happening because it undermines the whole concept behind gear progression. I don't see gear normalization ever working either, but there's no reason the current system can't be improved. You just have a rather daunting task of making both sides compromise while keeping the basic design intact.

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