Not just a "hybrid tax deal"

Mage
So, I was a little incensed over GC's tweet in response to the "no reason to bring mages" question. As a raid leader who has a mage in raid I felt it was a very legitimate complaint.

I'm not here because I feel mages need to do more dps, the issue I see is mages need more utility! Why the heck would I bring a mage when I can take a warlock, shadow priest or boomkin, if they all do equal damage?

When I look at the tasks I can assign a mage, the only thing I can think of is "I can have the mage take a hit and they can survive either because of cauterize or greater invis" however, this is nothing that a shadow priest cannot do more effectively with dispersion.

Now, even assuming all damage was equal (I know it isn't but that's not the point here) the warlock has better self healing (read "actually has self healing") more CC, portals that the group can use, better mobility, a battle rez, healthstones and more buffs/debuffs.

A shadow priest can bring: more self heals, better overall survival with higher flat damage reduction than the mage, short CD, powerful AoE heals with there lvl 90 talent tier, a Vampiric Embrace for a raid healing CD.

A boomkin can bring: more self heals, better overall survival with higher armor, damage reducing CD (barkskin) AoE raid healing CD (Tranq) and a brez.

At the moment, even if all the damage was even, on a fight with moderate steady raid damage the mage is going to need more heals, and provide none. WHY WOULD I BRING THIS CLASS?!!

I'm not trying to argue that mages should do more damage because they're a "pure dps" class, but I am certainly going to say GC hasn't paid very good attention to the raid utility beyond damage that classes bring these days if he thinks mages have any use beyond damage in a raid that other classes don't have more of.

It's unfortunate because I am positive mages won't receive the utility buffs they need to be more competitive due to the affect it would have on their PvP viability (which is still high from what I hear) but they need some sort of way to help out other players in a raid or they'll need to be able to bring the highest DPS to be viable. Why take a pure nuker who does 100k dps and takes 100% of all incoming damage when I can bring another class who does 100k dps, 8k hps over the course of a fight, and takes only 80% of all incoming damage? It just doesn't make sense to think that damage is the only variable here.

Sorry, I'll cut off now, give mages more utility damnit!
03/04/2013 05:20 AMPosted by Druidjezus
I'm not here because I feel mages need to do more dps, the issue I see is mages need more utility! Why the heck would I bring a mage when I can take a warlock, shadow priest or boomkin, if they all do equal damage?


The entire problem is that Mage utility, crowd control, has been rendered useless in PvE by Blizzard. Even in Raid fights that they specifically design around using crowd control, such as Heroic Will of the Emperor, Blizzard turns around and drastically nerfs Mages because they don't like how their crowd control trivlizes their encounter.

Which is the entire reason why Mages don't bring anything but damage to Raids.
100% of all incoming damage? Mages have shield abilities on 25 second cooldowns. They can negate a lot of burst damage from the bosses, the most dangerous kind.

I agree with a lot of your points, but being able to trivialize boss damage is much better than a steady stream of puny self healing. I feel much less squishy on my mage than warlock.

Also with the talent, mages have the ability to self heal as well. Although it's been gutted pretty bad.
03/04/2013 07:27 AMPosted by Sinuous
100% of all incoming damage? Mages have shield abilities on 25 second cooldowns. They can negate a lot of burst damage from the bosses, the most dangerous kind.


What are you talking about?

Temporal Shield?

Temporal Shield doesn't stop 100% of incoming damage. You still take all that damage, Temporal Shield merely heals the damage back over six seconds, as long as you don't die. Bosses tend to kill Mages with a single white hit. No burst damage needed.
100% of all incoming damage? Mages have shield abilities on 25 second cooldowns. They can negate a lot of burst damage from the bosses, the most dangerous kind.

I agree with a lot of your points, but being able to trivialize boss damage is much better than a steady stream of puny self healing. I feel much less squishy on my mage than warlock.

Also with the talent, mages have the ability to self heal as well. Although it's been gutted pretty bad.


There are some fights where this can be a personal advantage. But no amount of popping your temporal shield is going to compensate for a Rallying Cry + Demo banner, or any of the other combinations of raid cooldowns literally every other class has. With one raid wide cooldown, these other classes have decimated any benefit our personal utility could have provided overall. With two uses, mages are back of the bus.

I agree though that we do have extremely situational utility. Like being able to crack an amber prison 100% of the time, being able to negate the Amber debuff 3 times. These do help raid healing in more subtle ways, but they are situational and don't help when it counts. They don't help with the crushes, the blade tempests, the amber explosions, the things most likely to wipe you raid. Other class' utility does. That's the big, big glaring problem.
I've been thinking about the state of pure dps and hybrids a lot lately.

I believe that a Retribution Paladin should be able to do the same amount of damage as a mage.

However,

In doing that damage the Paladin should not be able to provide any utility whatsoever. There needs to be more of a DPS penalty for Hybrid classes when they actually USE their utility.

Let's say said Paladin wants to use Devotion Aura because the raid is about to take a ton of Shadow Damage. Currently, he hits the key and moves on - no dps lost - no brainer.

Since apparently people seem to hate to hear "Hybrid Tax", and my idea isn't a flat damage reduction to all Hybrids, I will call what I am proposing is a "Utility Tax". This "Utility Tax" would only be collected when the Utility spells are used.

To use the aforementioned Retribution Paladin and Devotion Aura as an example:

Retribution: Passive - Using Devotion Aura takes all of the Paladin's focus and they are unable to generate or spend Holy Power for the duration of the effect.
I've been thinking about the state of pure dps and hybrids a lot lately.

I believe that a Retribution Paladin should be able to do the same amount of damage as a mage.

However,

In doing that damage the Paladin should not be able to provide any utility whatsoever. There needs to be more of a DPS penalty for Hybrid classes when they actually USE their utility.

Let's say said Paladin wants to use Devotion Aura because the raid is about to take a ton of Shadow Damage. Currently, he hits the key and moves on - no dps lost - no brainer.

Since apparently people seem to hate to hear "Hybrid Tax", and my idea isn't a flat damage reduction to all Hybrids, I will call what I am proposing is a "Utility Tax". This "Utility Tax" would only be collected when the Utility spells are used.

To use the aforementioned Retribution Paladin and Devotion Aura as an example:

Retribution: Passive - Using Devotion Aura takes all of the Paladin's focus and they are unable to generate or spend Holy Power for the duration of the effect.


The other pure DPS classes all have utility like hybrids do. I'd rather just get some utility of our own rather than reduce everyone else's utility. Shortest distance between two points kinda deal.
The other pure DPS classes all have utility like hybrids do. I'd rather just get some utility of our own rather than reduce everyone else's utility. Shortest distance between two points kinda deal.


Warlocks do to some extent (Portals and Healthstones) but Hunters have none and Rogues just got Smoke Bomb in 5.2.

Furthermore, my idea does not reduce other classes' utility, it reduces their damage capability when that utility is used.
03/04/2013 10:52 AMPosted by Jinrah
The other pure DPS classes all have utility like hybrids do. I'd rather just get some utility of our own rather than reduce everyone else's utility. Shortest distance between two points kinda deal.


Warlocks do to some extent (Portals and Healthstones) but Hunters have none and Rogues just got Smoke Bomb in 5.2.


Hunters: Misdirect, Freezing traps, the ability to switch to any buff in the game, the ability to do full DPS on the move (which is extreme boss killing raid utility for things like Pheremone kiting or lighting up floor tiles), 60s deterrence (see H-Will).

Rogues: ToT, stunlocks, interrupts, can apply AoE snares using crippling poison and FoK, Feint which is game breakingly OP. Feint trivialized the H-Will encounter. Next patch Smoke Bomb is a raid wall.
Hunters are capable of passive or emergency self-healing and are able to bring in any buffs the raid might be missing via their pets, and, in a pinch, they can also bring in a pet with Hero if by some fluke you don't have anyone else who can do it.

Rogues can likewise passively heal themselves for a respectable amount, and have quite a few abilities/talents to reduce their damage taken.

Mages... Our only means of self healing leaves us a sitting duck and not doing any damage for several seconds, or can only be used once, maybe twice per boss fight. We don't bring any means of protecting others in a raid, we just have abilities/talents that reduce the amount of damage we personally take. We do bring two buffs rolled into one, along with Hero, but... That's it, really. :|
100% of all incoming damage? Mages have shield abilities on 25 second cooldowns. They can negate a lot of burst damage from the bosses, the most dangerous kind.

I agree with a lot of your points, but being able to trivialize boss damage is much better than a steady stream of puny self healing. I feel much less squishy on my mage than warlock.

Also with the talent, mages have the ability to self heal as well. Although it's been gutted pretty bad.


I'll admit, I was tired and I didn't think of frost barrier. Still though, warlocks have a similar talent for shielding themselves via their demon, and it may be on a longer CD but it's a larger shield. Also, if the fight has an extra damage mechanic or has multiple mobs the self healing can add up rather quickly to more than the mage is shielding, not to mention the warlock has similar damage reducing mechanics I think it is still a net win for the warlock.
The only reason to bring a mage is if you dont have any shaman, or any other mages. Now you may say this is rare, but that's why I went mage last expansion. No hero in a 25 man raid is really not good.
You're going to bring mages over priests because we'll do okay damage and we have a better dispersion than dispersion...

Greater Invisibility now has a 90-second cooldown (was 2.5 minutes).

1.5 min vs 2 min cd... WOOOT!

Also we bring the crit buff.
Know who else brings that Crit buff....WW Monks. That are in a pretty good spot.
Let's be honest, the golden age of Mages was the early days of WoW.
We had the most useful CC in the game, and we were the kings of AoE damage.

Now every bit of utility we can bring is provided by someone else, who can probably also off-heal, and is considerably easier to gear up (since they get spirit as hit).
That said, we don't need a battle-rez, enough classes can do that already, and given that you can only use it once per fight it's not a big deal.
I dunno. I think Mages still have the most clever damage mitigating/reducing ways. I can think of several on my mage (plus gift of the naru's added bonus). In raid the druid ALWAYS puts Symbiosis on me for the Healing Touch I receive and the mirror image he receives. So overall, I require the LEAST amount of healing and can do the MOST burst damage. Now, long haul dps I think mages got gypped on in comparison to everyone else. But personal damage reduction without sacrificing our rotations is definitely a bonus in my books. And more often than not, I find it's the difference between a wipe and 1% left on a boss.
So now mages are the only pure DPS class that not only can't hang with the other DPS, they even fail to the hybrids now?
03/04/2013 10:58 AMPosted by Medívh


Warlocks do to some extent (Portals and Healthstones) but Hunters have none and Rogues just got Smoke Bomb in 5.2.


Hunters: Misdirect, Freezing traps, the ability to switch to any buff in the game, the ability to do full DPS on the move (which is extreme boss killing raid utility for things like Pheremone kiting or lighting up floor tiles), 60s deterrence (see H-Will).

Rogues: ToT, stunlocks, interrupts, can apply AoE snares using crippling poison and FoK, Feint which is game breakingly OP. Feint trivialized the H-Will encounter. Next patch Smoke Bomb is a raid wall.


Considering this is a utility argument, and that almost always is a PvE consideration, I think you made a poor argument here comparing Rogue vs Mage. In order of your listing:

Lets just say that the Misdirect vs Bloodlust is a wash. Of course they aren't depending what you're analyzing but they are both very desirable PvE abilities that someone else can bring if necessary.

Stunlocks? PvE .... no need to comment there.

Interrupts .. mages can interrupt, from range, and can spell steal for that matter (though admittedly nerfed in most situations)

AoE snares .... ring of frost vs a poison change and FoK spam (

Feint (DMG reduction at cost of DPS) .... Blink/IceBlock/Mage Shields (damage reduction act cost of DPS)

----
I absolutely understand your concern w/ what benefits does a pure DPS have to compensate for hybrid benefit. I just think you made a very poor comparison of the mage kit to a rogue's kit. Particularly if we take in one of the biggest contrasts ever in WoW .... ranged vs melee. Outside of tanks PvE can absolutely be played without a single melee class. It just would 'feel' weird to have some of our ranged classes stacking up behind a boss, but it wouldn't prevent success in any way, shape or form.
I think the lack of cc in the raid designs is problematic to mage usefulness. But then again other classes can perform a short cd one minute cc (hex, fear etc) :(

Shadow preist off healing is really miniscule right now. Sure Vampiric Embrace can be a raid CD and devouring plague can keep the SP up nicely. Priest healing the raid is very puny though. 5.2 adds to that, they nerfed untalented flash greater and prayer of healing then gave Discipline and Holy the nerfs back in baseline talents.

I can't remember the spell right now but my mage (88) has a new one that lasts about 6 seconds and returns her to the place, time, buff state, and health/mana as when she cast it if she recasts it before it expires. I think coupled with cauterize that it could bypass a boss mechanic as well as feint.

I think Rogue has to have some self heal mechanics to sit in the same environment as frost dks, fury warriors, ret paladins, and even shaman. We wear leather and without leeching poison I would have to glyph feint and make it part of the rotation. It not only takes time to cast but it does cost energy. Recuperate also costs energy and combo points. So really rogues have a hybrid tax for some of their tricks.

When I am on my healer mage food really really helps. I know there are alternatives. When I am on a melee character I feel gimped without a health stone. Maybe mages ought to be able to provide mana gems to healers. It won't fix the class.

I think the problem is the mantra "bring the player not the class". I think it is foolhardy and will lead to more and more of these discussions where classes feel diluted and not necessary.

I havent looked at 5.2 content but aside from dps (which looks very good for 5.2) the only thing I can see rogues bringing to a raid is smokebomb damage reduction. I guess that is enough for 5.2, I wonder when ferals will get that spell.


Hunters: Misdirect, Freezing traps, the ability to switch to any buff in the game, the ability to do full DPS on the move (which is extreme boss killing raid utility for things like Pheremone kiting or lighting up floor tiles), 60s deterrence (see H-Will).

Rogues: ToT, stunlocks, interrupts, can apply AoE snares using crippling poison and FoK, Feint which is game breakingly OP. Feint trivialized the H-Will encounter. Next patch Smoke Bomb is a raid wall.


Considering this is a utility argument, and that almost always is a PvE consideration, I think you made a poor argument here comparing Rogue vs Mage. In order of your listing:

Lets just say that the Misdirect vs Bloodlust is a wash. Of course they aren't depending what you're analyzing but they are both very desirable PvE abilities that someone else can bring if necessary.

Stunlocks? PvE .... no need to comment there.

Interrupts .. mages can interrupt, from range, and can spell steal for that matter (though admittedly nerfed in most situations)

AoE snares .... ring of frost vs a poison change and FoK spam (

Feint (DMG reduction at cost of DPS) .... Blink/IceBlock/Mage Shields (damage reduction act cost of DPS)


Rogues can perform ranged interrupts very well this patch with Deadly Throw now only costing 3 CP (And was still an option before).

Ring of Frost is not a snare, it is a freeze. For snares, we have Cone of Cold for AOE (Requires near melee range), Frozen Orb and Frostbolt (Takes 3 casts on one target to get full effect) if Frost. Slow as Arcane (1 sec GCD unless glyphed, one target only). Frostfire Bolt for back up (Targeted cast, 3 sec base), and Blizzard's slow (Positional, high mana cost).

Spellsteal takes nearly a quarter of our mana to cast.

Feint has no cooldown. All Mage defensives you listed do, and Blink doesn't always act as a damage reduction.

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