When Do the Half Measures End for Ret??

I have suffered through PVP this season, as a pale shadow on my once glorious Cata self.
First let me say I am genuinely happy about the changes in 5.2
However these are changes that should have been implemented at the beginning of 5.1. PVP has changed in MOP it has become faster paced . more bursty , more intense & Paladins are sadly behind the curve.
In 5.2 many of the bursty classes (DK, War, Hunter, Mage, S priest) are getting their damage buffed!! ( Don't ask me whose idea this was)

We were lagging behind the dmg curve before, and now we will lag even further behind.

Please don't give me excuses about how amazing Paladins will scale, the other plate melee classes will scale just as well.

If you really want to fix Paladins here are some suggestions.

1) Allow the casting of 5 Holy Power abilities. Before you roll your eyes, What will this really affect,
We won't have to cast Inquisition as much.
Word of Glory will actually Heal for a noticeable amount instead of the pat on the shoulder it is now.
Templars Verdict will actually be our hardest hitting ability.

2) Change Glyph of Double Jeapordy, to allow Rets to store up their free Exorcisism procs from Art of War (I can not tell you how many times it gets wasted) .
if we could store 2 or 3 of those procs Rets would gain a nice store of burst to fall back on, and this would be a nice glyph instead of the travesties we call glyphs now.

3) This is personal preference please, put back Divine Protection to what it used to be I hate having to waste a Glyph Slot just to have my across the board damage reduction, whose idea was it to make it purely magical??

Paladins are slow, yes we can keep coming at you, but we are incredibly easy to control if you are a proficient ranged. Paladin vs competent S Priest, Lock or Hunter, is not a fight it's a cruel joke.
When we do get the opportunity to get on that target, every hit needs to count. Yes the increased melee dmg in 5.2 will help BUT half of our damage is spell based. What about that part?? I urge you to plz re-evaluate your outlook on Ret PVP, make us a real force, enough of the half measures!!


Never Going Holy
The patch isn't even live yet and your already complaining about how it isn't enough
03/04/2013 02:38 PMPosted by Iliriel
The patch isn't even live yet and your already complaining about how it isn't enough

I do a lot of random BGs so I'm very familiar with other classes damage output. So yes I am complaining even though patch isn't out yet. Because I don't think we will be up to par, since every other class is getting buffs as well.
With no buff to Wog or defensive abilities it's still in the same boat as 5.1

Clemency is mandatory, so the buff HoPurity received is negated (more of a pve buff)

Ret Wog is to low so EF isn't an option plus HoT is dispelable , SShield is on a fairly short cd requires another 30 second maintenance buff to monitor , dispelable and the absorb is rather weak with ramp up time required.

5 minute guardian, 5 minute bubble, 3 minute AM, 2 minute blind are all on cd's that are to long for them to be relied upon.

2 minute wings lines-up nice with HA, but were are still exposed when focused or cc trained

Every dps received the +25% pvp-power to healing
No, we really aren't in the same boat, you have a buff for flash heal that is also buffed further by the PVP power buff, your wogs will heal better and if you used justice all the time like I do you are getting a damage buff there on top of the 5% weapon damage buff we are getting and even further a 2 minute cd on wings, the buff to sacrifice, these are not "half measures" there's a lot going on here, and you should try testing it out before racing to the forums, can we at least give the devs a chance here?

@hly. While true many other specs received the healing buff, that does not negate the fact that we will be in a lot better place than we were before with these buffs, we will be better able to survive while we wait for our cool downs if that is indeed your play style
Ehh you can do the low rated rbgs if all you care about is conquest capping, a lot of things are going to have to change for non rogue/dk melee to be widely recruited into high end rbgs. And I think very few of those changes will be ones that directly affect retribution

I'm thinking of sweeping and unpopular changes that would make ranged classes a lot less desirable than they are now
03/04/2013 08:02 PMPosted by Iliriel
No, we really aren't in the same boat, you have a buff for flash heal that is also buffed further by the PVP power buff,

  • Selfless Healer now boosts Flash of Light by 20/40/60% (was 33/66/100%).

  • Selfless healer is getting nerfed, not buffed. That or I'm missing something else you said.
    03/04/2013 10:44 PMPosted by Stax
    No, we really aren't in the same boat, you have a buff for flash heal that is also buffed further by the PVP power buff,

  • Selfless Healer now boosts Flash of Light by 20/40/60% (was 33/66/100%).

  • Selfless healer is getting nerfed, not buffed. That or I'm missing something else you said.

    Selfless healer is getting buffed for Ret, actually. Sword of Light now increases FoL's healing by 100%, which more than offsets the nerf to the talent for other specs.

    That, and the PvP Power buff.
    The nerf to Selfless Healer only affects the ally-healing bonus; it's still instant and free at 3 stacks. Moreover, the Sword of Light buff (+30% -> +100%) more than outweighs the SH nerf even for ally-healing; overall we're looking at an increase of ~20% for ally-healing and ~50% for self-healing on SH FoLs.

    It's sorta maybe arguably a nerf to SH as a talent choice if you look at it in a certain way, since you'll be able to toss pretty strong FoLs without SH. But "free, instant" has always been the important part of SH anyway, and in 5.2 every free, instant FoL will be stronger than it was in 5.1.
    Yes Iliriel we still are in the same boat the same +25% heal buff is going to every off healing class, so S priests will still have crazy OP heals, boomkins, elem shams as well. While the seal of justice buff is nice it's only good for melee damage, and as you know a large part of Paly dmg is spell based. Hunters are getting buffed +5% AP across the board,+ multiple buffs to numerous abilities, same for S priests +5% dmg across the board, Boomkins are getting a 9% dmg increase. Warrior and Dk dmg increasing as well not to menation ehnc shamy, monk and rogue buffs, so yes we are very much in the same boat when it comes to pvp, with the exception of slightly better survivability ( templar Verdict Glyph Change and Sword of Light flash heal buff) and a hand of sac utility we didnt have before which does NOTHING for us 1 on 1. So now you'll be able to heal yourself for a few seconds longer while that hunter rips you apart.
    The point is this as a slow moving class with burst only every 2 minutes you are constantly put on the defensive. Something more is needed to help us mitigate the CC and incredibly powerful burst by ranged classes to be a competitive force in Arenas and BG's again.
    As I suggested initially 5 Holy Power casts for Ret would go a long way to fixing that. I would also propose a ranged damage/spell reflection ability like we used to have either passively or on use, to avoid the massive nuking by Hunters, S Priests, Warlocks. I will continue playing my Paly till I quit WOW I love him and nothing will change that, but I do think Blizz needs to re-evaluate their outlook on Rets.
    Shadow priests aren't going to have crazy heals. Aside from shadow priests the only other meaningful hybrid healing in PvP comes from retribution exclusively.

    If you look at the notes themselves you would see that they blanket nerfed shadow priests healing capabilities such that the +25% healing PvP power buff will essentially do nothing. So while every other hybrid gains this patch, shadow priests are going to be stuck essentially healing what they do now. Basically everyone else shifts upwards and they remain where they are at.

    You talk about very conflicting things in your post. You mention how the new hand of sacrifice buff does nothing for you in 1v1 but then mention being competitive in arenas and BGs. If you can't see how a retribution with clemency being able to remove all magic effects from their partners in 3s isn't a huge buff.. well I don't know what to tell you.

    I hate to break it to you but being able to burst 'x' amount of minutes isn't solely exclusive to retribution. Truth be told most kills in this game land within long CDs and very rarely do kills take place outside of CDs.

    I expect retribution to be very viable in arena come 5.2 and be a much more rounded class as well. They will probably still be awful in RBGs, but at least take solace in knowing that you aren't the only one. Unless you are a flag carrier or a frost DK you aren't wanted in RBGs. If frost DKs didn't have gorefiends grasp they probably would be overlooked as well in RBGs in competitive play. The issue with RBGs is solely game design, melee as a whole needs to be looked at and that isn't going to be fixed in one patch unfortunately.

    Your post just reeks of cherry picking to be honest. Retribution got some QoL changes thrown at it and some very moderate tweaks. As mentioned the sacrifice change is going to be pretty big in 3s. You have to take everything together instead of just mentioning buffs even the more generally perceived 'broken' classes got. Yes shadow priests got a 5% overall buff and 25% more damage on shadow word pain, but you don't even mention the negatives. Fade not acting a mini smoke bomb is GAME changing. Shadow priests being vulnerable to lockouts on their defensive is also huge, as is the fact that compared to other hybrids in 5.2, their healing isn't going to get stronger. I could go on with pretty much every class you mentioned, but you should be getting the point.
    Shadow priests already have crazy heals, yes Rets healing is potent but it is not sustainable. After 2-3 flashes of light we are oom. Our big utility comes from Hand of Prot and Hand of Sacs. A S priest can plant himself and lterally cast heals for like 30-40 seconds straight, plus the Void Shift trick, when things get really hairy.
    Also this is a Paly forum while I appreciate you taking the time to read the post, it was written for people who play Rets and understand some of the frustration we've been experiencing this patch, and want to contribute their opinions and suggest solutions.
    I would not expect a class like yours with insane burst, a magical shell that prevents fears and dots from being applied, offensive dispells, and multiple silences to understand what it's like for a Ret Paly to be fighting a skilled S Priest.
    You are right Grommash the hand of Sac changes should make a significant difference in Arenas. However I am trying to address a systemic issue that has arisen in PVP where slower classes who are not as bursty ( ie: Rets and I would say Ehn Shammies) can not be as competitive. Obviously I am taking in very broad terms here, there will be outstanding individuals who know their class well and have significant impact on a BG or Arena no matter what their class because they understand their role in a team environment.
    What I am saying is I would like to see Rets role expanded to not just being that guy who pops wings every 2 minutes and can hand of freedom or BOP you. To do this larger PVP issues need to be adressed such as Ranged Vs Melee Class balance in general.
    I am not saying that things are completely out of whack and I hate this game. I enjoy the game and I love my class, that is why I want to see some of the shortcomings that I feel can be easily addressed that for some reason haven't ( I would think Blizz's preference to address PVE before PVP balance) finally brought to light and resolved.
    Why can't people who play with retribution, or have played one comment on them? Just because I don't actively play one right now doesn't mean I can't begin to understand what is wrong with them. Half of balancing is how they play alongside every other class, because every class has to interact with one another.

    How would I not know what it's like? Retribution and Frost have pretty much the same weaknesses. Our base damage is decently high and our burst is not the best, but it comes rather frequently. Retribution burst whether you admit it or not is one of the highest in the game, it does however come infrequently.

    DKs much like Paladins are seen as absolutely annoying in a world environment because you can choose when to engage. When one drops on you with all CDs popped they do absurd damage, and seem immune to every CC effect and damage thrown at them. A DK in this environment is a completely different beast than the one you would witness in arena play after the opening minute. I have to sacrifice damage to sit in blood presence (a lot more than a warrior does) and even then we still blow up quickly.

    DKs dont have multiple silences, we have one with a 2 minute CD. It's getting improved today but it certainly isn't multiple silences. DKs only saving grace in 5.1 was RBGs, that's it.'

    Death knights were currently better than retribution in 5.1, but like I said I believe it was only because of our limited involvement in RBGs (as an aoe grip bot)

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