So... why does GoSac exist?

Warlock
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Why do these posts exist? Or more appropriately why is it here?

They've already said multiple times, they rarely, if ever, go into class forums, they use the role forums and test realms ones for feedback.

Have you ever seen a blue post in class forums regularly?

Not saying it's a bad topic, but one better addressed where, they have a much better chance of seeing it.

And yea sac and supremacy were very close on live, but in single target only.

Just messing around on ptr, even after the latest nerf, if you're allowed in the fight to be using havoc on cd for double chaosbolt, sac will more then likely still beat supremacy. And in fights where you get 3xshadowburn havocs chances, it easily will beat it. That's just what I see in the gear I have on, haven't played around with 15 gear.
03/02/2013 04:59 AMPosted by Backslider
surely it is at least a little bit more of a hassle to have a pet out though? Otherwise no one would care about Sacrifice nerfs yes?


Are you trying to say including /petattack in some macros and/or having another to start/stop attack while on passive is difficult?

Skill cap is not increased by having a pet, even if it has abilities... it's no different than using anything else in the game except the pet can be killed or cc'd in pvp..

The reason people use GoSac is because pet AI is garbage and pet's don't do anything interesting right now. People prefer the reliability of GoSac over Blizzards AI... The dev team refuses to take ownership of their shortcomings though.

Eg: why can my demon run all the way around an arena to hunt someone down but is too stupid to jump off a bridge after someone? <---- this is why GoSac is superior!

I personally like pets, I want to control a mega bad !@# demon from the twisting the nether. The problem is Blizzard has failed miserably to deliver on this fantasy aspect of the game.
Why do these posts exist? Or more appropriately why is it here?

They've already said multiple times, they rarely, if ever, go into class forums, they use the role forums and test realms ones for feedback.

Have you ever seen a blue post in class forums regularly?

Not saying it's a bad topic, but one better addressed where, they have a much better chance of seeing it.


No. You post a thread where it is appropriate. If you do not, it gets moved.

This is warlock specific, so it goes here.

There are blues who look in the class forums. They usually do not post though.

Early in the PTR phase, there were blue posts in the monk and... rogue? forums.

I'm not going to post a thread where it doesn't belong just to get it "seen" by Blizzard.
03/02/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Bitsi
No. You post a thread where it is appropriate. If you do not, it gets moved.
A thread to Blizzard isn't appropriate here. General discussion or damage dealers would be better.

03/02/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Bitsi
There are blues who look in the class forums. They usually do not post though.
Do you have proof of this?
If anything, Sac is more reliant on personal skill (excepting a very small group of circumstances) than Service/Supremacy. Sac SHOULD be at the top of DPS, by a small margin, when the player is playing better than "the sims" (though, AffDots and RPPM makes that a bit trivial). Furthermore, I feel that Sac shouldn't be balanced for BIS gear - as progression is basically moot at that point - but, probably balanced somewhat generously.

If anything, Service and Supremacy need something to make them more interesting. If Warlocks are preferring to play sans pets, maybe there's a good reason for that?
surely it is at least a little bit more of a hassle to have a pet out though? Otherwise no one would care about Sacrifice nerfs yes?


Are you trying to say including /petattack in some macros and/or having another to start/stop attack while on passive is difficult?


No, I'm trying to say this:

Despite the pet macros, surely it is at least a little bit more of a hassle to have a pet out though? Otherwise no one would care about Sacrifice nerfs yes? Even if the difficulty arises because the braindead AI is braindead, and because you at least occasionally have to deal with despawning/suicidal pets.


It's very simple...since it's obvious that the AI is broken, it's preferable to have the same DPS without having a stupid/despawning/squishy/buggy pet. If you have the same DPS without having a pet, then Sacrifice is THE ability for at least one spec. A poorly nerfed Sacrifice will push people to use pets, a well-managed sacrifice will make the options more equal. But Sacrifice as it is now pushes you to NOT use a pet. People are arguing that nerfing Sacrifice will limit choices, when an un-nerfed Sacrifice already does this. So really, the argument is "I don't like managing pets on a pet class even though I knew what the AI was going to be like, please make me into a mage (but I don't want to roll a mage)."

If AI is the problem, then let's push for a change to AI that will benefit alllllll warlocks instead of just the mage wannabe's?
It's very simple...since it's obvious that the AI is broken, it's preferable to have the same DPS without having a stupid/despawning/squishy/buggy pet. If you have the same DPS without having a pet, then Sacrifice is THE ability for at least one spec. A poorly nerfed Sacrifice will push people to use pets, a well-managed sacrifice will make the options more equal. But Sacrifice as it is now pushes you to NOT use a pet. People are arguing that nerfing Sacrifice will limit choices, when an un-nerfed Sacrifice already does this. So really, the argument is "I don't like managing pets on a pet class even though I knew what the AI was going to be like, please make me into a mage (but I don't want to roll a mage)."

If AI is the problem, then let's push for a change to AI that will benefit alllllll warlocks instead of just the mage wannabe's?


That's not true at all. Especially the part about being a wannabe mage, that's just utter conjecture on your part.

I don't like managing pets because the AI has sucked since launch. I leveled SL, and went DP at 60 because that seemed to be the design intent of the Affliction tree. The whole reason behind giving phase shift and crazy mana regeneration to the imp was to play it unlike traditional pet classes. The pet provided utility, and I provided the damage.

GoSac and GoSup were the same way. One used a pet for damage, the other used the pet for utility. Now we're being forced to use GoSup, and that's not the class I originally rolled. This is a completely different version of a Warlock, and one that I'm not okay with.
The whole we're not mages argument, is pretty shallow. Let's be a bit more realistic here, all ranged are pretty much the same you cast stuff and sparkly effects happen. That kind ofargument is better served for the rp forums.

For them to act like lock players chose the class cuz of it's demon, I'd like to introduce to them the highest climb in warlock representation ever, the mid to end of bc expansion, you know when warlocks were "killing" their demons to top charts.

They already knew a lot of players enjoyed locks without that demon, yea it was op, but it brought more to the class without a doubt. Whether all that was just cuz of the damage is arguable, but to say none of it was cuz people finally found a lock style they enjoyed, killing their demon, is just close minded.

Blizzard themselves realized that players actually enjoyed killing off their demon, otherwise, they would never have even created the talent.

I'm actually totally fine with the nerfs, if my early personal testing pans out the way I've seen so far, supremacy for single target fights, and sac when i get regular havoc usage. However, their mentality about these talents does seem at the worst questionable, but at the least confusing.
That's not true at all. Especially the part about being a wannabe mage, that's just utter conjecture on your part.


*Shrug* I don't claim to know the motivation behind every Sacrifice supporter, and to be honest I don't really care. What matters is you have people that want equal DPS minus the hassle the other specs must deal with and have dealt with for a very long time, suggesting that to lower DPS for Sacrifice is to pidgeonhole a pet class into being a pet class, when Sacrifice as it is right now already pidgeonholes players into NOT being a pet class. That's not arguing for balance or options, that's arguing for less headache than the other specs, but equal reward. Argue for a fix to AI if the AI is broken. The answer shouldn't be for Aff to shut itself away in a petless utopia while the other specs have to deal with a bigger headache for the same DPS.
At high gear levels with lots of mastery gosac will still be the best choice for affliction...
*Shrug* I don't claim to know the motivation behind every Sacrifice supporter, and to be honest I don't really care. What matters is you have people that want equal DPS minus the hassle the other specs must deal with and have dealt with for a very long time, suggesting that to lower DPS for Sacrifice is to pidgeonhole a pet class into being a pet class, when Sacrifice as it is right now already pidgeonholes players into NOT being a pet class. That's not arguing for balance or options, that's arguing for less headache than the other specs, but equal reward. Argue for a fix to AI if the AI is broken. The answer shouldn't be for Aff to shut itself away in a petless utopia while the other specs have to deal with a bigger headache for the same DPS.


Is it any wonder that the two specs whose pets don't scale well with the stats on their gear have little interest in taking a clunky, mobile totem straight out of 2008 over a talent that not only doesn't subject them to poor AI and uninteresting mechanics, but also scales with their gear?

I don't think the majority of warlocks would care that they're to use a pet if the pets weren't broken and painfully dull.


Argue for a fix to AI if the AI is broken. The answer shouldn't be for Aff to shut itself away in a petless utopia while the other specs have to deal with a bigger headache for the same DPS.


There we go, agreed. Let's get that done. Class-wide fixes to outdated AI > band-aid talents that benefit only a single spec, maybe two.
So we agree that improved AI is the answer, and not shoddy patchwork fixes for talents that benefit only some of the warlocks. Sweet.
03/02/2013 02:34 PMPosted by Backslider
So we agree that improved AI is the answer, and not shoddy patchwork fixes for talents that benefit only some of the warlocks. Sweet.


Could say that just as easily another way.

We agree that improved AI is the answer, not gutting the one talent that let you bypass blizzards failed demon design. Equally as sweet right?
I was using Sac simply because the current pets are pretty boring. Even the Doom guard/Terror guard is just boring as hell. Shivarra is my favorite as of now i just wish she had a whirlwind ability or i could change her weapons or make her carry 6 blades instead of 4. I think we should be able to switch out our guardian pets like a hunter can. Or be able to permantely train a Pit lord or some interesting mechanic.
So we agree that improved AI is the answer, and not shoddy patchwork fixes for talents that benefit only some of the warlocks. Sweet.


Could say that just as easily another way.

We agree that improved AI is the answer, not gutting the one talent that let you bypass blizzards failed demon design. Equally as sweet right?


Nah. I like the fix that helps all locks better. A bypass will help some locks and keep some from being as loud about pet AI improvements, when really all locks should be pushing for it. Maybe with a Sacrifice nerf locks of all specs will actually work together instead of fighting for their particular spec to be special and be allowed to bypass flawed pet mechanics while leaving the remaining spec(s) to the wolves. I'll admit such selfishness and indifference towards others is a very lock-like trait, but it doesn't translate very well into a real-world healthy community, or help get things done in general.
There we go, agreed. Let's get that done. Class-wide fixes to outdated AI > band-aid talents that benefit only a single spec, maybe two.


Just one problem here. For at least 3 xpacs we have asked for better/fully functional pet ui. This xpac we got pet reskins.

At some point we have to face the facts that pet ui will always be wonky and that the problems with pet ui are problems not easily fixed or they would have been fixed already.
03/02/2013 05:36 PMPosted by Backslider


Could say that just as easily another way.

We agree that improved AI is the answer, not gutting the one talent that let you bypass blizzards failed demon design. Equally as sweet right?


Nah. I like the fix that helps all locks better. A bypass will help some locks and keep some from being as loud about pet AI improvements, when really all locks should be pushing for it. Maybe with a Sacrifice nerf locks of all specs will actually work together instead of fighting for their particular spec to be special and be allowed to bypass flawed pet mechanics while leaving the remaining spec(s) to the wolves. I'll admit such selfishness and indifference towards others is a very lock-like trait, but it doesn't translate very well into a real-world healthy community, or help get things done in general.


You're acting as if there's 20 specs and a only a couple are bennefitting well from sac. It's 2 outta 3, which is the majority by the way, and the 1 spec that isn't, it's specialty is demons, which coincidentally actually scale with all of the locks stats, unlike those other 2 specs.

So what your saying is punish those that want to play without demons, so they will champion the cause of getting demons fixed. And that doesn't seem selfish in anyway?

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