Mage 5.2 PVE raiding survey

Mage
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Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Fire
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)? 10-normal, 5-mans
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/uxs8fm77u0s447d3/ (Tuesday ToT 10)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-gbourl1nr7xmbwbw/ (Thursday ToT 10)
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? No
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? Yes, our iLevels vary from 489 to 496

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel? 491
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? The loss of spreading living bomb HURT badly.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? Not great, while yes I can scorch on the move I am gimped compared to other DPS classes that can do their full DPS on the move.
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? It is very lacking. I get the combustion nerf in 5.1 (even though I still think they overshot the mark).
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? We bring utility that is useful for raids? I don't feel like the mage specific abilities have been useful since (if I am being charitable) Wrath.
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? Restore the bite of Fire. With the lack of spreading Living Bomb, the lackluster damage of combustion (unless you get stupidly lucky), and the nerf to Pyro I just feel like Fire has no teeth.

I have been playing a Mage since way back in 2005 (I'm one of those weirdos who don't really have alts). I've taken the ups and downs over that time but right now I don't feel like I am contributing much to my raid team. Mages can only really provide one thing to a raid in the current design paradigm and that is damage. Hunters can provide missing buff coverage, Rogues can negate a lot of damage they would take (and are very reliable interrupters), Warlocks absolutely destroy (and have fears, soulstones, portals, and the ability to summon). Meanwhile Mages sit in their own little corner only providing damage and not even doing a very good job of that. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I know the wrong answer is to do nothing. As it stands right now I fully expect to start hearing of guilds in the upper echelon of raiding benching their Mages like back in Sunwell. And while I don't claim to speak for everyone, that can't be good for the game (let alone the mage community).
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Frost
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
25 normal ToT
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
W: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7wo9ttm0ft4hmern/analyze/dd/source/
H: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4vru3vfxo3bpjlae/analyze/dd/source/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? Yes I changed from arcane/frost dual spec to fire/frost dual spec. I performed Wed as fire and Thursday as frost.
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? Yes I am the same ilvl as the other mages in the guild, and around the same as other players.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage? I am feeling sad overall. Fiance is a warlock, and I never like being beaten into the ground by him on dps ><. With my competitiveness, I think this may end up hurting our relationship :( lol.
6) What is your average ilevel? 494
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? There are no terrible qol problems as frost right now that I can see, but I have not played the spec enough for me to notice. Currently I am optimized for fire but using frost, and am pulling okay numbers, but could probably do better.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? I changed from arcane to fire because I have consistently heard that with higher gear fire would be okay, and it is more fun than arcane. Frost has consistently been a second spec this tier so that stayed the same. Wed. night I started as fire, but my dps was low for aoe and dependent on RNG, so on Thursday I tested frost using my fire gear and optimization. 10k dps increase in practice. Since we needed aoe dps for our current progression, I stayed frost. I will continue to test fire and when it exceeds frost I will change then.
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? Okay. I am not good with moving and doing damage (ie I play a mage) so I do not know.
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Pretty good as fire and frost, but I think single target should be higher, esp. compared to how I placed in the last patch with guildies to the start of this patch.
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? Not really needed. No crucial buffs and only one healer uses me for my refreshment table lol. Honestly, based on performances the past few nights, if we had other options for dps that were as geared as needed, they would be taken.
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? For fire, single target damage should be increased for people with lower gear (how-still thinking on this one) For frost, I have not played it long enough or well enough to give a good opinion.
More logs of Paybax from my post on page 4.

These are of 10m Normal Primordius, Dark Animus, and Iron Qon

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sbxygyu8imbc2iwq/
This is probably fairly useless, but it's all I have right now. Five wipes on Horridon:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wx8qtngopz0c6eas/

Quote from Sethmann
If Blizzard's internal tools were really better than our community generated logs, then why does Blizzard constantly make horrible balancing decisions?

4.1 They doubled the amount of damage that Ignite contributed to Combustion to offset removing the tiny amount of damage that Pyroblast's DoT contributed to combustion. Hotfixed with in 24 hours to only half the value of Ignite and still not Pyroblast DoT along with a massive crit multiplier reduction that several weeks later was partially reverted after a long twitter campaign to convince GC that his team was wrong and had massively crippled Fire Mages.

To Lisanna and LHivera, this kind of feedback is more important than the logs.
Were not both of you number crunching A LOT, on that one issue for the devs, and YET, here we are again, having to put so much effort into getting our FUN back to a semblence of what it was.
To clarify, this feedback is "Well, if the bly devs are doing their jobs, then why was ~~some-MULTITUDE-of-past-history~~ the way it was"?
If you really want these personnel submissions of data to help, please tack on to the TOP of this thread, as many times as possible as when number crunching was done by WE THE PLAYERS, too include LHivera's number crunching times against the INFAMOUS Mage Tax.
And then ask them "Don't you feel, just a tiny bit ASHAMED that WE THE PLAYERS are constantly coming back with number crunching that differs DRASTICALLY from your thoughts"?
IF you can actually get that question across to a bly dev, it will serve far better than EVERY MAGE in the game's personnel data (WHICH THEY ALREAYD HAVE), than the data being served to them on a SILVER PLATTER, paid for by OUR SUBS..
You can simulate DPS output for single-target patchwork fights. You can't simulate how people feel playing the specs in real raid encounters. You also can't simulate AOE/cleave/movement fights very easily. Pleases keep this thread about what areas of mages need to be looked at. There is a great deal of awesome feedback here. Keep in mind that Only feedback staying in the general survey format is making it into my excel sheet. Keep it up!
03/07/2013 11:04 PMPosted by Lhivera
I fired off a note to GC this morning explaining this issue.

Thank you thank you, you are a gem!

Why are you a Druid making a thread like this when we have Lhivera? I don't mean to insult you, but Lhivera is one of the best theory crafters in Wow. Should we not leave a thread like this to be handled by a a real Mage?

Just looks to me like your trying to make a thread to rufle up the QQ to appease them, or perhaps you don't like what you see and decided to take it on yourself to right the "wrongs to the fire and arcane Mage"... Guess what? It's nice for frost to be on top, I hate Arcane and don't care a lot for Fire, but I like frost. It's time for Frost to be raid viable and not on the bottom of the charts for PvE.

I was going to main my mage in 5.0 but Frost being the suck for PvE as it has been for years turned me off to it. But here I am now lvling my mage happy to be able to raid with the spec I like to play and not hold the guild back doing it. IT IS NICE.


Lissanna has a mage she raids often, and Lhivera... well, hasn't raided any of the new content. Theory crafting can only tell you so much experience is more valuable.
1) Fire. Im not a cookie cutter class and IM not switching to frost for pvp
2)So far Ive done heroics, lfr and the island and my dps is so low that the healers sometimes do better then I do
3) Havent had a chance to log anything because I got so disappointed and started playing my rogue again
4)I was arcane for pve since cata with fire for pvp. changed to fire for pve and pvp since mop came out and loved it. I was doing great damage. I couldmanage 3-4 mobs at a time, now its like I have to 1 on 1 everything and end up with 15% hp at the end of the fight
5)Yes. More or less Im about average in ilvl

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 486
7) You took away invoc. I had to use a glyph and a talent point to heal myself in a raid. sure its a lesser cast time now but the healing is not at all what I would call feasible. First aid heals more I think and if I want to healmysel I have to spam invoc until Im at full health and by then my dps has dropped because of this. The adition to 15 secs was nice and invoc is nice because I can be mobile. With rune of power you have to sit in one place.
Pyroblast. it sucks. period. my highest crit Ive seen with pyro is 45k. before patch I was pushing 200k pyro. If I want it to spread I have to cast it, sit there , make tea, read the newspaper then hit combust and inferno blast for some ( some) aoe damage. and while we are being serious lets talk about flamestrike as aoe.
Inferno blast. There is a 50% chance that when heating up procs and I cast inferno that pryo doesnt proc at all. so there goes my macro for alter time, trinket, pyro, alter time, pyro becasue its seriously hit or miss with inferno blast.
Living bomb doesnt spread anymore its single target so I have to spam living bomb on every target so its tab lb tab lb tab lb if there are 3 targets nby the time IM done casting scorch and fireball to hope for a heating up proc living bomb is already finnished.
Looking at DK some of their diseases last 30 seconds. why not have some of ours last that long as well so boss fights arent spent tabing multiple mobs?
Flameglow. are you serious? this is what they gave us? let me tell you that a rogue can will and does spam throwing stars and chews through this. How about a reflect instead of an absorb? that way they are taking damage and when we get spammed it reflects? reflect would make this actually pretty nice but right now its worthless. It absorbs like 3k damage. when is the last time a boss mob actually did 3k damage
8) I changed back to arcane to try out damage in a raid and heroics and it was horrible. So I just stopped playing my mage altogeher
9) It sucks. badly. In pvp I was top 3-5 on dps now IM barely above the healers. Pvs is the same
10)It sucks. badly.
11) In a raid? well lets just say that there are other classes that buff the same thing we do and our food doesnt buff stats so why have a mage in a raid when you can drop a tale, buff stats and a monk or lock buffs spell power crit and intel
12) Change it back to 5.1. seriously 5.1 was the most fun I had as a mage. Now Im on the island trying out thunder king stuff and I gave up. I cant kite because I have to tab targets while IM moving and casting scorch.

Change it back to 5.1 and I would consider staying in wow. otherwise there are other mmo;s out there.
I started playing in vanilla as a mage. I love the class but this is the worst Ive ever seen it.

Im not switching to frost because thats what everyone is telling me to do. respeccing all my gear and reforging and gemming are expensive. and is frost really that good in pve?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/trollbane/Redsox/advanced
Thanks for taking the time to read these(if you actually are) I've played mage since vanilla, specifically because it was always seen as a class that brings a lot of dmg to the raid as its main role.

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Frost, I tried out Mastery/RoP arcane but the dmg felt similar and I was glued to one spot
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)? 5/12 25 man raids
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful): http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/36207/ logs from my guild for as long as they go back
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lcdszkki4q72uee5/sum/damageDone/?s=5092&e=5613 our megara kill that didnt log for some reason
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? I was raiding as haste arcane before 5.2. with the changes to evocation dropping stacks its no longer a viable build so the last few raids before 5.2 i switched to frost for some fights to get the hang of it. I played fire until you guys killed it in 5.1
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? Im way over geared compared to most of the raid, I raid lead and have been here for weeks whereas we have new members who didn't get to farm t14 heroic stuff.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel? 507
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? Unreliable proc based dmg, water ele now useless with no water jet in place to proc fof on fights w/o adds, lack of raid utility compared to other classes (locks, shadowpriests) who heal us/portal us/give us healthstones and do TONS OF DMG
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? I hate RoP and refuse to play arcane that way. there is too much moving on all the new fights to be caught standing still, and haste arcane builds were essentially removed with the changes
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? frosts movement dmg is the only reason im playing it
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? lackluster compared to other classes
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? horrible. shamans bring our best buff and stormlash. locks bring tons of utility and healthstones. shadowpriests do crazy dmg and 55khps. even boomchickens outshine us with tranq, and hunters can misdrect and trap adds. we have personal survivalbility and movement, thats it
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? bring back fof procs on any water ele freeze for more reliable burst or give us water jet. Also on megara there's a bug with frost orb flying off in any direction. just make fire good again so we can all go back to playing it.
as promised here are my logs

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Fire
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
10 man normal

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q8iv8sb70yrt563t/, http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-flivreler301zsgr/ sorry fri/saturday merged their
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
yes i did i am currently fire but prior i was arcane
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? 7/10 of us are item lvl 500 and above i am 502, i was 501 before the raid ended

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?
I defiedinly feel that mages got nerfed way 2 much noithing to make me stop playing but i feel as though we got nerfed into the ground so much that mages are not worth the weight to carry in raids atm

6) What is your average ilevel?
501, 500 raid
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
fire is very problamtic the nerf to pyro hurts like hell keep in mind when pyro doesnt crit and thats what mages depend on that the end result is a very strugling single target dps, the aoe is also horrible the cleve missing lb is extremely noticable and only makes me want to use nether vortex, overall fire is horrible and only has the 1 thing i choose to to become this spec for 5.2 viable numbers enough to maintain a raid spot and the only spec thats aviable to do good numbers on heavy movement fight *the only spec* so u could say i respec to use scorch
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
again i explained alot of that in the prior comment but its the only spec right now thats worth a damn in pve, and the only spec that will scale with gear, frost dont make me laugh, arcane is beyond salvage right now so u could say its the only halfway working spec

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
needs to be buffed but i can work with fire, arcane heavy movement is dead ice heavy movement is dead atm

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
needs to be buffed drastically i went from being number 1 with some of the highest item level at the time to the very bottom of the meters

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? very useless, if it wasnt for timewarp half of us wouldnt have our spot now, we offer noithing that any other classs can provide the only thing i can say is maybe relieable CC poly,FOF, deep freeze

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
give us back combustion damage or re arrange it to where its worth using and i do mean something thats worth it, none of this well its worth the gcd damage this is true but arguably mages have no burst damage outside lucky rng luck with AT at the very least give us back LB cleve that was just evil taking that away dare i say give us flame orb back

UPDATE: as mages from EU start raiding, you can post your answers/logs on the EU forum post that someone cross-posted: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6787179757#1

i will try to provide more logs tomorrow
pss. after comparing my logs to others i feel like its neccesary to inform u on the second boss fight i had 32 secs of inactivty i was the 1 who controlled the boss.. seeing as how i did over 7 million more damage then the 150th rank mage *albeit wol is somewhat inconclusive with their payment option* having me say i dont feel like mages are good for raids should hit home as i considered myself the among the top 1000 mages raiding for this week raid anywayz.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Fire/arcane (mostly fire)
2) 10M Normal ToT, 5 mans, scenarios, questing, the gamut
3) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2aftl7n9eeu0pu3f/rankinfo/
4) I was the same specs in 5.1.
5) I'm around the middle to slightly below (506,504,500,497,500).

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 502
7) Crit starvation, worthless feeling CDs outside of stars aligning for pyro crit strings (hero not withstanding).
8) I'm back to more fire than arcane rather than more arcane than fire. Arcane is totally different now and I'm basically feeling my way around in the dark with it. But with the heavy handed nerfs all around it doesn't feel like it'd -could- be competitive at all, even against fire which got a large nerf with CM plus pyro nerf (also heavy handed).
9) Fire is decent, arcane is worthless with movement. Literally worthless.
10) Fire is low, arcane is even lower. It's kinda embarrassing.
11) Outside of hero I feel pretty bad. The only thing keeping me playing my mage is the crit buff.
12) I would like Blizz to keep their grubby mitts off mages to be honest. Then I won't have to relearn my spec every patch, cope with crippling nerfs, still have movement dps and be able to switch mains without looking back.
Why are you a Druid making a thread like this when we have Lhivera? I don't mean to insult you, but Lhivera is one of the best theory crafters in Wow. Should we not leave a thread like this to be handled by a a real Mage?


Go away.
He doesn't raid, this mage does.
Theorycraft is irrelevant to actual gameplay, sims are nice but very limited.
My raid group decided to sit me for the tier after our first raid night in 5.2 when an 8ilevel lower hunter was able to do more dps than I was on the couple of attempts on Horridon I had (and those were definitely learning attempts as we only got through 2 doors...people [not me] just kept dying). It really was scarily close to the tanks (20k or so dps close)...it seemed like any time I got 2 crits (or heck, even one) the add I was working on would immediately die so I couldn't build/spread a combustion, and that majorly showed in my damage (combustion was #8 or so, living bomb DoT was #3) but I imagine it could be worked out if our cleave was returned so we could build on Horridon himself and spread it well..if the adds were grouped up.

I wasn't on the first boss so don't feel I can really attest to true, fairly stationary numbers that included a burst phase, and we only had a few attempts on the Council (but FWIW I was beating the hunter there..I'd decided to try out frost for that though).

I thought it was premature since it was the first raid night and kinks are still being worked out, but didn't really want to argue since fire just isn't fun anymore and while I'll play the other specs, I don't enjoy them and consequently don't play them as well. Trying to force it has severely increased my burnout. I'm happy I'll finally have time to level other toons, but I'm sure shortly I'll be itching to get back into raiding and won't feel it's fair to join a pug since the damage is in such a bad place.

1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Fire/Frost after first attempts with Fire
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)? [10n ToT Horridon & Council attempts
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful): N/A
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? I was fire, but had tried arcane and frost as well.
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? Around the same

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel? 502 w/new VP neck
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? 5.2 Low crits, low AoE compared to others in group. High burst, much lower sustained.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? Couldn't seem to get any crits...Fire was just not working on Horridon, at least to learn the fight.
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? Blazing Speed is pretty darn fun, and having scorch back helps but I didn't get long enough in raid to really get a feel for it.
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Extremely underwhelming. Said better by others (ex. Mahourai)
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? Do ports after raid count as utility?...(low to middling dps is not utility)
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be? Make fire fun again (ie, crits a la pre-CM nerf), or as a change to the norm, make frost an awesome raiding spec and don't ruin that when attempting to fix it for PVP. And for Pete's sake, redesign level 90 talents. My hunter's damage isn't completely gimped if I fail to use a talent for a second or two
I'll play your game. :)

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Frost
2) Everything but Heroic stuff basically, currently 25N
3)
Jin'rokh wipes
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v6s67zr6qnmdpvzx/sum/damageDone/?enc=wipes&boss=69465
Jin'rokh kill with everything lining up which is not the norm
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v6s67zr6qnmdpvzx/sum/damageDone/?s=4628&e=4934
Horridon wipe after wipe
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v6s67zr6qnmdpvzx/sum/damageDone/?enc=wipes&boss=68476

4) I was the same spec in 5.1.
5) 490ish (give or take 5 iLvls)

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 491
7) More reliance on RNG procs now that Frost lost Pet Freeze, reliance on the 3 stacking Frostbolt buff makes all of Frost damage weaker in large add fights like Horridon
8) N/A
9) Frost lost it's reliable movement damage from Pet Freeze
10) Stand still burst phases are not as good as 5.1 since losing the guaranteed FoF from Pet Freeze, RNG kills Frost as it relies on predictable burst phases to optimize damage
11) There is no utility that a Mage brings that multiple other classes cannot bring
12) Bring back at least one reliable FoF proc (Pet Freeze, Water jet, Whatever), more reliable BrainFreeze proc, make Blizzard a viable AoE on demand rather than waiting on a long cool down Frost Orb

People are just now learning the new changes and there numbers will of coarse be much lower than they would in the next few weeks once they get a hang of what there doing.


I can't speak for the other mage specs but the change to Frost only dropped a single thing out of my rotation. So not a huge learning curve.

And your comment about waiting on gear is a little annoying. Others have mentioned in this thread how it is not acceptable for mages to suck while other classes do better with the same iLvl hitting the ground in 5.2. We should not have to wait on gear to match up.
Thank you for this as an arcane mage i feel the dev team skipped the nerf bat and went straight to the louisville slugger before the nerf i was viable in raids now i'm sitting idle. i hope they allow mages to recover

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