Lead PvP Designer Confirms Global WW at 2%

Arenas
In a Recent Tweet from Holinka , World of Warcraft Leads PvP designer:

Monks have a low global representation. Looking at arena representation as an indicator of balance here isn't reliable


One person asks:

Monks have a %2 representation above 2200 in 3vs3 arena. Are you trying to say our global representation is close to %2?


Holinka simply replies:

Yes


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WW Monk Representation is low because , no one feels compelled to play them. Which is a DESIGN issue.

5.2 was looking promising until sustained damage went down by 15%. NO ONE wants to play a gimped spec that takes 30-45 seconds ( in a perfect scenario) to build 10 TEB stacks to deal equal damage to where we were in 5.1.

We want our place back in pvp. Take away our burst but damn , give us back our sustained pressure.

Vital Things Spec needs:
- Some form of passive damage resistance.
- Hit box range increased to standard 5 yards.
- Sustained damage brought back up.

These three things alone can entirely counter everything negative about WW right now.
Monks should have never been added to the game.
Pandaren shouldn't have been added either.
Or Goblins or Worgen.


Haha and DK are God's Gift to world of warcraft. Word.
Haha and DK are God's Gift to world of warcraft. Word.
I'm glad you see it my way.
yolo swagger


Amen brother.

Back on subject, every class has a weakness. WW Monks have too many, we take too much damage passively, we take too long to deal decent damage, and our hit box is 3 yards so we literally have to be riding opponents like horses to deal damage. Those 3 weaknesses make us highly dependent on our arena partners to cover those areas for us. Its fine in the thoery of cooperation. But 99% of people will just replace the WW Monk with a different class that has control and better damage, and ability to stay on target higher.

A competitive arena tourn team , will NEVER take WW Monk seriously , because just by adding one to the team , the team is already at a disadvantage. Thats not cool bro.
WW Monk Representation is low because , no one feels compelled to play them. Which is a DESIGN issue.


If you are compelled to play it, it is likely because it is overpowered and FOTM. No one wanted to start from level one in the first season and probably be behind a few weeks in gear. Those that did do that, are still not experts in the class.

Those that are high rating in arena know the game inside and out, and know their current class like the back of their hand.

Monks will probably continue to be lower represented until the end of the expansion.
If the global WW monk population is only at 2% that is their loss honestly. The WW monk is one of the most powerful classes in 5.2 when in the hands of a skilled player. They have an answer for pretty much everything, have excellent mobility and control, etc..

Be glad no one is playing WW =P
03/21/2013 07:20 AMPosted by Dezia
WW Monk Representation is low because , no one feels compelled to play them. Which is a DESIGN issue.


If you are compelled to play it, it is likely because it is overpowered and FOTM. No one wanted to start from level one in the first season and probably be behind a few weeks in gear. Those that did do that, are still not experts in the class.

Those that are high rating in arena know the game inside and out, and know their current class like the back of their hand.

Monks will probably continue to be lower represented until the end of the expansion.


This is true for the majority, but for people like me who have been playing this game literally for 7 years ( check if you need) , and played WW monk when they were weak in 5.1 , I can honestly say without a doubt , that the few that do pull up thier boot straps and level a windwalker monk 1-90 , are sorely dissappointed when they realize they are playing a spec that is severly watered down potential.
Monks should have never been added to the game.
Pandaren shouldn't have been added either.
Or Goblins or Worgen.


Or Male Humans, but that is just my 2c!
If the global WW monk population is only at 2% that is their loss honestly. The WW monk is one of the most powerful classes in 5.2 when in the hands of a skilled player. They have an answer for pretty much everything, have excellent mobility and control, etc..

Be glad no one is playing WW =P


Thessik , im not the type of person to embarrass people on the forums or nit-pick at people , but given your arena experience , and win/loss ratio .. what kinds of issues are you personally running into as running WW/X?

I can garentee , that you are not the only one with those same issues.
WW weakness is lack of damage (and namely ramp up time). The more gear I've gotten, and the more I play 3s, the more I see people actually don't train a monk (surprisingly) unless a caster cleave. Almost all melee cleaves will target boomkins, spriests, warlocks, warriors, dks, and both shaman specs.

I'm rarely the opening target anymore (again, this surprises me). However when we do get trained, it doesn't take too long to go down. Much more susceptible against casters than melee (even with 1.5 min cloak and zen med). I wouldn't mind seeing a damage reduction tied to roll so when you're running to los using roll/torpedo - you get some dr from the casters because frankly magic dominates us past CD. At least with melee we have disarms and RoP. I guess this is just WW weakness.

Back to the point - the main issue I see is that WW scale too sharply on gear. Low gear, you hit with pillow fists and foam swords compared to, say a DK, in comparable gear. DKs can put out nearly double the damage with much less ramp up time (for comparison sake - in 476 honor gear and honor weapons).

And that's the second point - most often times the best defense in arena in a good offense. With the horrible ramp up time for WW, you often end up on the defensive because you cant put out enough offensive pressure to get the opposing team to not train whoever is on your team.

Honestly, give me back the 5.2 PTR monk two weeks prior to 5.2 release (before RSK and Stance damage nerfs) and I think monks are in a great spot.
WW weakness is lack of damage (and namely ramp up time). The more gear I've gotten, and the more I play 3s, the more I see people actually don't train a monk (surprisingly) unless a caster cleave. Almost all melee cleaves will target boomkins, spriests, warlocks, warriors, dks, and both shaman specs.

I'm rarely the opening target anymore (again, this surprises me). However when we do get trained, it doesn't take too long to go down. Much more susceptible against casters than melee (even with 1.5 min cloak and zen med). I wouldn't mind seeing a damage reduction tied to roll so when you're running to los using roll/torpedo - you get some dr from the casters because frankly magic dominates us past CD. At least with melee we have disarms and RoP. I guess this is just WW weakness.

Back to the point - the main issue I see is that WW scale too sharply on gear. Low gear, you hit with pillow fists and foam swords compared to, say a DK, in comparable gear. DKs can put out nearly double the damage with much less ramp up time (for comparison sake - in 476 honor gear and honor weapons).

And that's the second point - most often times the best defense in arena in a good offense. With the horrible ramp up time for WW, you often end up on the defensive because you cant put out enough offensive pressure to get the opposing team to not train whoever is on your team.

Honestly, give me back the 5.2 PTR monk two weeks prior to 5.2 release (before RSK and Stance damage nerfs) and I think monks are in a great spot.


I've suggested that if they dont want to buff sustained damage directly , then TEB stacks needs to build at a pace of every 2 chi as to 3. With everyone forced to go mastery to deal damage, chi building is very slow.
The monk class is a complete mess. It has nothing to do with raw power (even though that is partly the problem).

The class is just a jumbled mess, and what design scheme it had going previous to 5.2 was demolished, and the class is way less fun now then it was previous to the patch when it was widely recognized to be a subpar class to begin with.

People saying "No one wants to start at level 1" really needs to stop posting. It seriously takes about as much time to level a monk from 1-90 then it does to level a DK from 55-90. The 50% 2hr buff that boost experience gain by 50% on top of BoA items makes leveling a complete joke.

The buff even gives you 20% experience bonus in MoP questing and dungeon areas. The class isn't being played because it was designed poorly, and while some find it fun most do not.

I have two level 90 monks both of which I really enjoyed previous to 5.2. Now? I don't even log them on, and I have zero desire to play them in competitive pvp.
WW Monk Representation is low because , no one feels compelled to play them. Which is a DESIGN issue.
I'm compelled to disagree to say that Design is not 100% of the issue. A lot of players have been playing the game for so long (8 - 11 million players are the same from the previous years) that they may not feel like playing an 11th class. Specially with how painful the grind from 85 - 90 is. Specially that lvl 89 lol. So you've got to think about both the people who already have 10+ toons of the different classes that were here already to get to 90 and adding 1 more to that. Plus the people who are compelled to stick to their own class instead of experimenting with different classes.
Do I think monks could use some upgrades? maaaaaaaybe. IDK 'cause I'm not full tyrannical yet. So far I really enjoy playing my monk even though the gear disparity is kind of crazy at the moment.

On a related note I never got why people got so concerned with class representations. If you're enjoying your class then what does it matter what other people do? I can't honestly think that because only a low % of the players play my same class - there MUST be something wrong it. To me, they're missing out but they probably think the same about me when I don't play their class.
Ugh, I can't believe people really think the monk class is a mess. I personally love it.
On a related note I never got why people got so concerned with class representations. If you're enjoying your class then what does it matter what other people do? I can't honestly think that because only a low % of the players play my same class - there MUST be something wrong it. To me, they're missing out but they probably think the same about me when I don't play their class.

QFT.

You should play a class, and honestly representation shouldn't matter. Rep is not the end-all, be-all, of balance. However, it at least gives some insight to how things are going.

What I think would be a good indicator of balance - iterations of damage output by classes in a 3s match in stages. First 30-45 seconds, next minute, etc. and draw correlations to survival and output. Rather than subjective statements such as "warriors have too much burst" (I know I've been guilty of these types of statements as well), they should objectively look at match data broken down by time elapsed, damage output per class (or healing). Heck, they could even compare damage uptime, overall damage, and time spent not in control of character - and probably could draw some amazing correlations.

As much as people like to think Blizzard doesn't try to balance at all - they do. However, sometimes I think they are using the wrong metrics in accordance with balance.
Personally I just haven't been compelled to get one to 90 cause of how alt friendly mop was at the start, with dailies and catch up mechanics on pvp gear... o wait yeah. I think monks are a surprisgly well designed class balance wise, given how new they are. Its very clear to me they have a good skill gap, fighting a good monk vs random monk is night & day how hard they are to kill. I have a level 42 one and I think its fun I love that theres class quests I just again find myself going ugh do I want another 90? Do I have the time? I really think monks are more of a victim of outside design choices which crunch players time, and motivation to work on new toons rather, then crying for buffs.

I enjoy my paladin I wasn't going to reroll monk I'm sure many people feel the same way about there favorite class. The problem started when you walked into the wall of dailies and ilvl upgrades hitting 90, that doesn't make people feel motivated to make another 90. Another 90 feels like adding mores chores to do this expansiom, and yes I kill dragons. Maybe I'm flat wrong and its just me.
03/21/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Eltron
WW Monk Representation is low because , no one feels compelled to play them. Which is a DESIGN issue.
I'm compelled to disagree to say that Design is not 100% of the issue. A lot of players have been playing the game for so long (8 - 11 million players are the same from the previous years) that they may not feel like playing an 11th class. Specially with how painful the grind from 85 - 90 is. Specially that lvl 89 lol. So you've got to think about both the people who already have 10+ toons of the different classes that were here already to get to 90 and adding 1 more to that. Plus the people who are compelled to stick to their own class instead of experimenting with different classes.
Do I think monks could use some upgrades? maaaaaaaybe. IDK 'cause I'm not full tyrannical yet. So far I really enjoy playing my monk even though the gear disparity is kind of crazy at the moment.

On a related note I never got why people got so concerned with class representations. If you're enjoying your class then what does it matter what other people do? I can't honestly think that because only a low % of the players play my same class - there MUST be something wrong it. To me, they're missing out but they probably think the same about me when I don't play their class.


Representations are important because they show , "hey , im not imagining things , there are things that are wrong about this, and I have numbers to prove it"

For alot of people enjoying ANY class is the ability to be competitive in any arena/ BG bracket. Taking that away is like taking away hope. Rank 1 Monks all are saying the same thing as well , and they have the gear and access to most talented player compositions yet they mention glaring issues such as survivability , and sustained damage.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum