Paladin glyphs are in a terrible state.

Paladin
Paladins probably have the worst glyphs in the game currently. Many of them make your character perform worse, are bland and don't change much, or are simply annoying to use. I doubt Blizzard will actually see this thread, and in the off-chance they do, I don't think they'd actually do anything about the current state of glyphs. Nevertheless, I feel like sharing my ideas for some glyphs that are actually neat. Most of them are changes to current glyphs, but there are a couple ideas for new ones.

This first one in particular makes me happy. Seals and Judgements used to be the core of the paladin's offensive mechanics and they interacted with one another in neat ways. Now Judgement is just a little splash of damage, and your seals are barely noticeable passive buffs that you sometimes change around. This brings me to...

Glyph of Empowered Judgement (replaces Double Jeopardy and it's awkward mechanic, and yes I'm using the old spelling for Judgement. Dropping that E makes it look strange): Grants your Judgement spell an additional effect, depending on what Seal if currently active, and gives your seals a 6 second cooldown. Truth grants 5 stacks of Censure instantly. Righteousness causes Judgement to proc Seal of Righteousness. Justice causes judgement to apply the Seal of Justice snare (replace Burden of Guilt with something else). Insight causes Judgement to heal the paladin, and group members within 30 yards for 100% of the damage dealt. If more then 3 targets are healed by this effect, the amount of health granted is reduced (essentially capping the amount healed to 300% of damage done).

This makes the Judgement a lot more interesting in general, and makes Insight more attractive for non-holy paladins. Burden of Guilt is pretty bland for a talent, and ret is almost pigeon holed into getting the talent. You'll need to heavily rely on teammates keeping opponents in place if you don't pick it up. This glyph can get rid of that talent in favor of something more interesting, while simultaneously giving Justice more of a role in PVP. The change to Insight would probably necessitate removing Glyph of the Battle Healer.

Glyph of Inquisition: Casting Word of Glory increases the duration of your Inquisition by 5 seconds, up to maximum of 15 additional seconds. Just something to make the glyph useful, and convenient in situations where you cannot afford to recast Inquisition.

Glyph of Blinding Light: Halves the cooldown of Blinding Light, and allows it to take a small amount of damage before breaking the effect, but it now only effects one target. Lets your morph Blinding Light into a more Repentance-type ability. Could also have the Light of Dawn spell effect to blast people in the face with. It would maybe necessitate changing Repentance or removing it though.

Glyph of Weakened Blows: Your Crusader Strike now applies the Weakened Blows effect. Just a simple little glyph. Unlocks the useful debuff from the not-always-favorable Hammer of the Righteous. Also allows access to the debuff for Holy.

Glyph of Harsh Words (change to Holy spec only): Your Word of Glory can now ONLY be cast on enemies. In addition, your PVP power statistic no longer grants you additional healing, and instead grants you additional damage (the standard amount that DPS classes get). This would be a step to making a shockadin style of play actually function. While I'm not particularly interested in the style, it's annoying to see Blizzard give Holy some damage tools and glyphs that hint at being able to focus on damage, but then in actuality, damage is just out of holy's grasp. I imagine it's largely because of the lack of PVP power adding damage. Making it only castable on enemies makes holy have to sacrifice the majority of its instant cast healing, which would hopefully balance it out.

Glyph of Protector of the Innocent: Damage taken by the paladin from Hand of Sacrifice is healed back over 6 seconds. Additionally, Devotion Aura applies the Hand of Sacrifice effect to effected group members. Makes the glyph more focused on protecting teammates and absorbing blows from them, which fits the name a little more I think. Also makes Devotion Aura more compelling to use as prot/ret.

Glyph of Avenging Wrath (change to ret only): While Avenging Wrath is active, your Templar's Verdict will also trigger Word of Glory, which is cast on the lowest health friendly target within 15 yards. This effect has a 5 seconds cooldown (to prevent extreme shenanigans with Holy Avenger/Divine Purpose). Much more interesting than healing a tiny percent of health over a fairly long duration.

Glyph of Seal Swapping: When you use Crusader Strike, Seal of Truth is automatically activated. When you use Hammer of the Righteous, Seal of Righteousness is automatically activated. Gives both of these seals a 10 second cooldown. This is mostly something to make swapping from AoE to single target in PVE less of a pain. Spending the global cooldowns to swap seals constantly on trash in raids can get annoying, and in many cases is a DPS loss depending on how long things will last.

Anyhow, those are my wishes to make the paladin glyph set more interesting.
and then Tarvoz dropped in to approve.
Glyph of Blinding Light: Halves the cooldown of Blinding Light, and allows it to take a small amount of damage before breaking the effect, but it now only effects one target. Lets your morph Blinding Light into a more Repentance-type ability. Could also have the Light of Dawn spell effect to blast people in the face with. It would maybe necessitate changing Repentance or removing it though.

i do dearly miss repentance
As far as I know, glyphs don't work directly with talents / talented abilities.
[...] and yes I'm using the old spelling for Judgement. Dropping that E makes it look strange[...]


As someone who used the word 'judgment' in a professional sense on a daily basis, it drove me absolutely insane to see it misspelled on the tooltip for, oh, about 6-7 years.
I like these of course, but they would be such a buff for all paladin classes. Where would we have to take a corresponding nerf to balance?
I like these of course, but they would be such a buff for all paladin classes. Where would we have to take a corresponding nerf to balance?


It's doubtful that Blizzard would actually take the suggestions to heart, so analyzing it to that degree isn't really worth the time. But I'm on internet forums, so I've got some time to kill.

Many of the changes are more prot/ret focused, since holy stands in a good spot overall. No sane person would object to ret/prot paladins getting some kind of buff, since they're not exactly tearing up the rated battlegrounds and arenas. The ones that effect damage are minor increases at best, so it wouldn't yield overpowered DPS in PVE.

Even if they did implement all of these changes, and assuming in practice they turned out to be good with the numbers and effects currently stated, then they would be balanced out by only having 3 glyph slots, similar to how talents are balanced.
I'm fine with glyphs being largely cosmetic, and with the glyph of TV being absolutely mandatory.. but I definitely agree with the ones that are effectively traps no matter how much Blizzard justifies them as "training wheels."

Removing the ability for players to cost themselves dps was one of their major points behind the change to the talent system.. so players couldn't make really underperforming builds. Well, they gave us glyphs that can do it instead.

Also when the PTR forums come back up for 5.3, post this thread there.
Glyph of Empowered Judgement (replaces Double Jeopardy and it's awkward mechanic, and yes I'm using the old spelling for Judgement. Dropping that E makes it look strange): Grants your Judgement spell an additional effect, depending on what Seal if currently active, and gives your seals a 6 second cooldown. Truth grants 5 stacks of Censure instantly. Righteousness causes Judgement to proc Seal of Righteousness. Justice causes judgement to apply the Seal of Justice snare (replace Burden of Guilt with something else). Insight causes Judgement to heal the paladin, and group members within 30 yards for 100% of the damage dealt. If more then 3 targets are healed by this effect, the amount of health granted is reduced (essentially capping the amount healed to 300% of damage done).


Not bad, I could see this being adjusted according to spec in addition to the seal: SoT for prot/ret adds 5 stacks of Censure and for holy applies a HoT on a nearby ally for a % of the damage done by censure, Justice is fine as is, but then only ret gets that one, Righteousness could get a healing or absorb effect based on damage done for holy, Insight might be better if they restored the old "debuff that heals the ones attacking" in one form or another that SoL had way back when.

03/22/2013 08:11 PMPosted by Turaven
This makes the Judgement a lot more interesting in general, and makes Insight more attractive for non-holy paladins.

SoI is already used by prots for survival, so it would only really affect rets as far as that seal goes.

Glyph of Weakened Blows: Your Crusader Strike now applies the Weakened Blows effect. Just a simple little glyph. Unlocks the useful debuff from the not-always-favorable Hammer of the Righteous. Also allows access to the debuff for Holy.

A bit unneeded, as you will either usually a) be doing content where mobs hit you like a wet noodle, b) have another tank that can keep the debuff up or c) only have to use the one attack every 30 seconds or so. Aside from allowing Holy access to the debuff, I'd rather see a glyph like this extend/refresh the weakend blows debuff via Crusader strike so you only have to use hammer at the start/if debuff falls off.

Glyph of Protector of the Innocent: Damage taken by the paladin from Hand of Sacrifice is healed back over 6 seconds. Additionally, Devotion Aura applies the Hand of Sacrifice effect to effected group members. Makes the glyph more focused on protecting teammates and absorbing blows from them, which fits the name a little more I think. Also makes Devotion Aura more compelling to use as prot/ret.


Very good, but I'd add a cap based on paladin's health for the HoSac effect, and as far as making Devo more appealing to prot/ret, well, it is one of those raid CDs that is often used in rotation with others.

Some good suggestions over all, but at first you did sound like you were speaking for all paladins or were lacking in some experience with a spec or two, as Prot is in a good spot PvE wise as well, provided people know what they are doing and change glyphs according to fight (like I might replace Glyph of Divine Protection with Focused shield for heavy magic damage bosses, or with holy wrath for mobs of elementals).

One thing about the glyphs though is that some could easily be done away with if blizzard baked them into the ability (looking at you holy wrath).
This first one in particular makes me happy. Seals and Judgements used to be the core of the paladin's offensive mechanics and they interacted with one another in neat ways. Now Judgement is just a little splash of damage, and your seals are barely noticeable passive buffs that you sometimes change around. This brings me to...

Glyph of Empowered Judgement (replaces Double Jeopardy and it's awkward mechanic, and yes I'm using the old spelling for Judgement. Dropping that E makes it look strange): Grants your Judgement spell an additional effect, depending on what Seal if currently active, and gives your seals a 6 second cooldown. Truth grants 5 stacks of Censure instantly. Righteousness causes Judgement to proc Seal of Righteousness. Justice causes judgement to apply the Seal of Justice snare (replace Burden of Guilt with something else). Insight causes Judgement to heal the paladin, and group members within 30 yards for 100% of the damage dealt. If more then 3 targets are healed by this effect, the amount of health granted is reduced (essentially capping the amount healed to 300% of damage done).

This makes the Judgement a lot more interesting in general, and makes Insight more attractive for non-holy paladins. Burden of Guilt is pretty bland for a talent, and ret is almost pigeon holed into getting the talent. You'll need to heavily rely on teammates keeping opponents in place if you don't pick it up. This glyph can get rid of that talent in favor of something more interesting, while simultaneously giving Justice more of a role in PVP. The change to Insight would probably necessitate removing Glyph of the Battle Healer.


It may come as a shock, but Judgement now does ALOT more damage than it did in previous expansions; major reason probably being, Judgement used to have alot more interaction with Seals. It had a lower priority, because it was more utility oriented than damage. SoTruth used to add Censure to the target (was removed along with everything else at the start of MoP, then added back again), SoRighteousness used to do one big hit at range with Judgement, and SoInsight used to do heal the Paladin on Judgement.

The added interaction meant it's base damage couldn't be so high, so in order to up the overall damage of the Paladin, they took the interactions away (except for Truth). The interactions still (kind of) exist though, just not in such a nice fitting way. As SoRighteousness is at its core an AoE ability, the using it on a ranged target via Judgement would mimic the current Holy Prism. Snaring a target at range, which could be done through SoJustice, is done through Burden of Guilt.

Quite some time ago, there was an interesting discussion on these forums how the overall feeling of the Judgement/Seal interaction was greatly missed. The best suggestion was to make Judgement interact with Seals again:

SoJustice - Your Judgement snares the target and deals x% weapon damage as Holy Damage. (Put something else in there for Burden of Guilt)
SoRighteousness - Your Judgement deal x% wepon damage as Holy Damage to an enemy and all enemies within 10 yards of that enemy. (Put something else in there for Holy Prism)
SoTruth - Your Judgement applys Censure to the target. (already implemented)
SoInsight - Your Judgement restores health and mana. (already implemented)

Then, have Ret's Mastery improve the effectiveness of their active Seal; more damage or more healing basically.

If that wasn't super appealing, then at least having the active Seal interact with Crusder Strike/Hammer of Righteous and Divine Storm. AoE Snare (SoJ), AoE Burst (SoR), AoE DoT (SoT), or AoE healing/mana (SoI).
As for Glyphs in general, I was under the impression that Glyphs were turning into playstyle customizers (or something to that effect). But, that is sorely not the case.

So, Glyph of Word of Glory would do something like apply the healing from your WoG over 6 sec rather than all in one burst. Exact same healing, but distributed over time.

Similarly, Glyph of Truth would do something like apply all the damage up front that your DoT would do but would no long apply Censure. Exact same damage, but done entirely up front rather than over time.
Similarly, Glyph of Truth would do something like apply all the damage up front that your DoT would do but would no long apply Censure. Exact same damage, but done entirely up front rather than over time.

This would be basically strictly better than the unglyphed version... why would anybody not use it?
Upvoted for great justice.

I'm all up for having some choices even if they are just minor quality of life changes in the form of glyphs.
Surprisingly some very good ideas here. Good job; making glyphs fun and desirable is a great idea.
03/23/2013 09:41 PMPosted by Stockbroker
Similarly, Glyph of Truth would do something like apply all the damage up front that your DoT would do but would no long apply Censure. Exact same damage, but done entirely up front rather than over time.

This would be basically strictly better than the unglyphed version... why would anybody not use it?


Because the theory behind playstyle glyphs is that they change playstyle without increasing or decreasing damage. There's nothing to say this is guaranteed loss/gain in damage.

Censure deals X amount of Holy Damage over it's 15sec duration and stacks. This means that if you built 5 stacks and ran off, every 3 sec it would deal its damage until it ran out after the 5th tick. Since all weapon swing timers are static now, it wouldnt be that hard to make the Glyph calculate the damage for 3.6sec or 2.6sec and then distribute it into every weapond swing.

The biggest loss actually comes from not having 100% uptime on something. The Censure DoT keeps ticking if you need to move around for a bit, but a Glyph like this would take the Censure DoT away. Depending on the fight and the player, this loss might well be very insignificant in the overall damage of a fight.
I think I tried that one Glyph - Truth? For a while that ups your Melee damg and Cuts your dot damg. I had it like this for a while, until I saw NO ONE else used it - and once I changed it out, my DPS jumped up.

I feel like some of these Glyphs are there just to trap us into sucking more.
We do have a pretty wonky selection, yeah. I'd like to see it be more of a matter of picking what few ways we choose to beef ourselves up instead of what we sacrifice for awkward little situations. Some other classes already embrace this. :s
I miss the old judgements.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum