Valor Upgrades and Offsets - Upgrade by Slot

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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The good news is that the idea of 500 valor upgrades to gear in 5.3 seems more reasonable. It'll take you 8 weeks to upgrade everything 2/2 (or 5 weeks coming into the patch with 3000 valor) and then you only need to earn 500 valor per additional item you get. Still going to take over two months before you can stop valor capping each week, but at least there's a semi end to the grind.

Until you consider offsets.

In that case, you're never going to be able to stop valor capping if you're a DPS who goes healing on healing intensive fight or vice versa (or tank who goes DPS, etc).

So, an idea for a solution - when you upgrade an item, have every item in your inventory for that slot also get upgraded. Upgrade gloves, and all gloves are upgraded. Ditto for helm. Rings/trinkets/weapons/offhands are trickier because you can use two at once, but I don't think this solution would cause a huge issue.

For rings and trinkets, just still upgrade both of them. Why is this okay? Because once you replace one trinket, you still have to pay 500 valor to upgrade it (or wait until you replace BOTH trinkets and then upgrade both). It's not perfect, but while it's a larger initial boost (mainly for trinkets), in the long run it's less of a big deal.

For weapons, a person with a 2H already has an advantage in this sense over someone with two weapons. Plus the above about rings and trinkets.

This still wouldn't solve offset issues entirely. For example, if you got a new offset helm, you'd still have to pay to upgrade it (unless you waited until you got a new main set helm too). Which means that in many cases you'd still have to upgrades items individually. But since you get offset items less frequently than main set items in most cases, it's still a vast improvement over the status quo.

While I recognize this isn't ideal and doesn't solve the problem entirely, it does seem it would be easy to implement (loop through items in inventory of that item slot and upgrade them) and would massively help. Though I wouldn't object to an even better (though likely more complicated) solution.

Thoughts?
The point of the upgrade system is to ensure you always improve even if you don't get any loot, not to facilitate maxing out absolutely every piece of loot in existence in your bags. The fact that you can't easily get BiS offspec loot isn't a "problem" with the upgrade system anymore than it is now.
VP upgrades are intended to make valor useful after the first few weeks. Blizzard honestly doesn't care if you're BiS or not, especially on your offsets. They gave an inch and you're asking for a mile tbh.
03/23/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Mahourai
The point of the upgrade system is to ensure you always improve even if you don't get any loot


Shouldn't that apply to both specs?

The fact that you can't easily get BiS offspec loot isn't a "problem" with the upgrade system anymore than it is now.


It won't be BiS, it'll already be leftovers items no one needed for main spec. Your offset will ALREADY be worse, now it'll be a FURTHER 8 ilvls worse.
VP upgrades are intended to make valor useful after the first few weeks. Blizzard honestly doesn't care if you're BiS or not, especially on your offsets. They gave an inch and you're asking for a mile tbh.


They also didn't want to make people feel compelled to cap valor every week indefinitely and agonize over what to upgrade.

To quote Blizzard:

In 5.3 the costs are dramatically cut to the point that these decisions are far less brutal, and you can pretty easily upgrade every slot instead of hedging bets against specific slots being replaced or not.


Emphasis on "pretty easily upgrade every slot."
03/23/2013 09:29 PMPosted by Balkoth
Shouldn't that apply to both specs?


No? How does that follow? Should a token give you all three specs worth of gear? When a boss drops a weapon for you does it need to be modular so you can use it for your OS?

Mneme is dead-on here, the system is a benefit to you and you're grousing because it doesn't also do your taxes and cook you breakfast.
03/23/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Mahourai
No? How does that follow?


Point of nerf: make it easier over time

Point of Valor Upgrades: make it easier over time for those who spend the valor (in other words, a new 90 doesn't get the benefit of valor upgrades over two months while they do benefit from a nerf to the raid).

Problem: valor spending doesn't work for offsets (while the blanket nerf did)

Solution: Enable valor spending to upgrade the offsets as well to keep the core principle of self-improvement rather than raid nerfs

03/23/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Mahourai
Should a token give you all three specs worth of gear? When a boss drops a weapon for you does it need to be modular so you can use it for your OS?


Actually, a weapon IS modular for me. So are some items for my main set. However, the same isn't true for every other spec.

Mneme is dead-on here, the system is a benefit to you and you're grousing because it doesn't also do your taxes and cook you breakfast.


No, I'm grousing because my guild and I absolutely loathe valor capping each week. It is difficult to describe the sheer intensity of our hate for it. The 500 valor per item means we could potentially see an end in sight...except for that whole offspec thing. The offspec thing also benefits some characters more than others (characters that can use the same item for multiple specs get a larger benefit out of it).

Blizzard doesn't want us to struggle over deciding what to upgrade or worry about "wasting" valor. We still will struggle over what to upgrade and worry about "wasting" valor unless something is done about offsets.
The other result is that you won't finish fully upgrading your main spec in 2 months anyway because getting a 2/2 upgrade on your offspec Weapon, Chest, Legs, Trinkets etc. is more effective (assuming you actually use it during raids often) than your main spec's Ring or Neck.
The other result is that you won't finish fully upgrading your main spec in 2 months anyway because getting a 2/2 upgrade on your offspec Weapon, Chest, Legs, Trinkets etc. is more effective (assuming you actually use it during raids often) than your main spec's Ring or Neck.


Precisely. Which is exactly the sort of decisions that Blizzard wants to avoid happening. We shouldn't struggling to figure out whether upgrading a main set item will be better than an off set item.
This is Blizzard's way of keeping VP relevant and "useful." If you only needed 8k valor per tier, then valor for normal/heroic raiders would be useless after 8 weeks...that doesn't keep subscriptions!

I have no issues with the improved upgrade system, I think it is great.
This is Blizzard's way of keeping VP relevant and "useful." If you only needed 8k valor per tier, then valor for normal/heroic raiders would be useless after 8 weeks...that doesn't keep subscriptions!

I have no issues with the improved upgrade system, I think it is great.


Normal + Heroic raiders won't cancel their subs if VP gear becomes useless.

One of the few things I can guarantee you
The upgrade system wasn't put in for everyone to bring every single piece of gear to it's maximum potential. It was a very nice addition that allowed players that have exhausted their options from vendors to blow VP's.

03/24/2013 09:28 AMPosted by Balkoth
The other result is that you won't finish fully upgrading your main spec in 2 months anyway because getting a 2/2 upgrade on your offspec Weapon, Chest, Legs, Trinkets etc. is more effective (assuming you actually use it during raids often) than your main spec's Ring or Neck.


Precisely. Which is exactly the sort of decisions that Blizzard wants to avoid happening. We shouldn't struggling to figure out whether upgrading a main set item will be better than an off set item.


Sounds like it's working as intended.... if you were to get every piece of gear maxed out within a couple months, offspec included, it sort of defeats the purpose of having gear upgrades to spend valor on in the first place.
This is Blizzard's way of keeping VP relevant and "useful." If you only needed 8k valor per tier, then valor for normal/heroic raiders would be useless after 8 weeks...that doesn't keep subscriptions!

I have no issues with the improved upgrade system, I think it is great.


Normal + Heroic raiders won't cancel their subs if VP gear becomes useless.

One of the few things I can guarantee you

I want VP to be useless. I used to spend excess VP (just the VP from raids - didn't do any other silly VP gathering activities) on BoEs and it was great.


Normal + Heroic raiders won't cancel their subs if VP gear becomes useless.

One of the few things I can guarantee you

I want VP to be useless. I used to spend excess VP (just the VP from raids - didn't do any other silly VP gathering activities) on BoEs and it was great.


I personally find that gear upgrades feel more rewarding than trying to unload BoE's in the AH that everyone and their dog are also trying to sell.
03/24/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Ashlí
This is Blizzard's way of keeping VP relevant and "useful." If you only needed 8k valor per tier, then valor for normal/heroic raiders would be useless after 8 weeks...that doesn't keep subscriptions!


You need more than 8k valor per tier, because you will be upgrading non BiS items. This means you will be spending more than 8k total because you will upgrade a piece of gear, replace it, and need to upgrade the new one. This is fine.

The problem is when you need to maintain an offset *as well.* This idea is aimed at making maintaining an off-set less awful.

03/24/2013 10:54 AMPosted by Gatoddy
The upgrade system wasn't put in for everyone to bring every single piece of gear to it's maximum potential. It was a very nice addition that allowed players that have exhausted their options from vendors to blow VP's.


To use some internet lingo: Orly?

"In 5.3 the costs are dramatically cut to the point that these decisions are far less brutal, and you can pretty easily upgrade every slot instead of hedging bets against specific slots being replaced or not."

Emphasis mine.

Sounds like it's working as intended.... if you were to get every piece of gear maxed out within a couple months, offspec included, it sort of defeats the purpose of having gear upgrades to spend valor on in the first place.


No, it doesn't. The purpose of gear upgrades is to provide a nerf to the content that you have to play to access (fresh 90 gets the benefit of nerf to raid but they don't get the benefit of three months of valor upgrades) and allow you to spend valor.

Also, why WOULDN'T every piece of gear get maxed out within a couple of months? How long do you expect 5.3 to last? It'll be a couple of months. Plus, again, you'll be replacing upgraded items and need to spend more valor to upgrade new ones.

I want VP to be useless. I used to spend excess VP (just the VP from raids - didn't do any other silly VP gathering activities) on BoEs and it was great.


I'd be quite happy with this, but I get Blizzard's goal and it somewhat makes sense - make people work for nerfs rather than give it to them. The problem is you can't even get half the weekly valor cap from clearing 12/12 (or 12/13H).

I personally find that gear upgrades feel more rewarding than trying to unload BoE's in the AH that everyone and their dog are also trying to sell.


Unloading BoEs is optional and you don't feel compelled to do it in order to maximize your raiding potential.

Upgrading gear is not optional and you feel compelled to cap valor every week, which Blizzard has stated they don't even expect most players to do.
Christ you people will complain about anything.

How about Bliz removes gear from the game? Then you don't have to valor cap every week. Or raid. Or even log in.
I don't see how upgrading gear is "not optional". 8 ilvl pts isn't going to make or break your performance. Raiders in heroic gear aren't going to fail because they couldn't afford to upgrade all their pieces. It's a perk, nothing more IMO.

Also, people won't be maxed out within a couple of months because, if they're smart, the first priority will be to buy the gear that takes a couple weeks to grind out before spending valor on upgrades. (Unless of course their luck with RNG is fantastic)
I don't see how upgrading gear is "not optional". 8 ilvl pts isn't going to make or break your performance. Raiders in heroic gear aren't going to fail because they couldn't afford to upgrade all their pieces. It's a perk, nothing more IMO.

Actually, you're wrong here. 8 ilvls per item is huge for an individual player, and even bigger for a raid. If everyone in your raid had every piece of their gear upgraded, your raid as a whole would have an average ilvl 8 higher than what it would be otherwise. That is a significant difference.
"In 5.3 the costs are dramatically cut to the point that these decisions are far less brutal, and you can pretty easily upgrade every slot instead of hedging bets against specific slots being replaced or not."


So you proved his point?

Any character only has 16/17 slots.

For OS's, they are just that offspecs. If you get a tier token do you complain because you can't use it on your os as well as your ms? No thats ridiculous. Just like complaining that you can't upgrade all pieces of a slot at the same cost.

They are giving you more than they previously did, dont complain because you dont think its enough.

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