Mogu Runes of Fate

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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04/08/2013 02:04 PMPosted by Balkoth
Grinding reps to get your keys....on ALL your alts....


This has to be referencing Heroic Dungeons - except the "grinding reps" meant "doing normal dungeons." The horror, doing normal dungeons to get into heroic dungeons. And you only had to do it once, not indefinitely.


Someone's got their rose-coloured glasses on. For BC heroic dungeons you had to buy a key from the quartermaster, which required Revered reputation. For example, you could not do Heroic Shadow Labyrinth until you had got to Lower City:Revered.

The only way to increase this rep, once you'd finished all quests , was to run normal Sethekk Halls and Shadow Labyrinth over and over.

Also, you could do the Heroic ver without ever doing the Normal ver (e.g. in this case rep up via Sethekk and then buy the heroic key).
Someone's got their rose-coloured glasses on. For BC heroic dungeons you had to buy a key from the quartermaster, which required Revered reputation. For example, you could not do Heroic Shadow Labyrinth until you had got to Lower City:Revered.

The only way to increase this rep, once you'd finished all quests , was to run normal Sethekk Halls and Shadow Labyrinth over and over.

Also, you could do the Heroic ver without ever doing the Normal ver (e.g. in this case rep up via Sethekk and then buy the heroic key).


I'm quite aware - I remember doing tons of normal Shadow Labyrinth runs to get exalted for the mace. Hell, I was in the group that got every server first for the heroic dungeons (and only two members of the group were even in the same guild).

Shadow Labyrinth gave something like 2k rep per run - so six runs from honored to revered. Even if you did absolutely no Lower City quests or normal Sethekk Halls, you're looking at 11 runs of Shadow Lab max to go from Neutral to Revered. Except, of course, you'd be running normal Sethekk Halls and normal Shadow Labyrinth for gear anyway.

Edit: I think I see where you might have misinterpreted me - I meant you had to grind out the rep once per character and then you were done, not that you only had to do the normal dungeon once to unlock heroic
I agree Autumni, people who complain about doing dailies nowadays didn't really understand the complexity of BC and the fact that
A: there was no dual spec
B: there was no convenient LFD
C: You had to find people on your server who wanted to do those dungeons on normal to hit heroic attunements.
D: You needed heroic dungeons cleared to do raids. (Hell Kara had an attunement that required you to run H-Steamvault, Shadowlabs, and Shattered Halls, then H-Black Morass).
E: When you wanted to level your alt to raid with your guild, you had to do all these rep grinds/attunements ALL over again.

Lesser charms aren't mandatory. What people do overlook is the fact that the Mogu Runes of Fate don't always yield loot. It's about a 1/5 to 1/6 chance to give loot. Now this is assuming that it isn't loot you already have or loot that you don't really want.
04/08/2013 11:46 PMPosted by Arilith
A: there was no dual spec


Not related to spending several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely (only a few people might swap specs unless they PvPed).

04/08/2013 11:46 PMPosted by Arilith
B: there was no convenient LFD


Not related to spending several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely (it was a pain to make groups at times (and I was on a low population server at the time), but it did have a better sense of community. I think LFD is better overall, but it definitely made us lose something).

04/08/2013 11:46 PMPosted by Arilith
C: You had to find people on your server who wanted to do those dungeons on normal to hit heroic attunements.


This is the same as B. And not related to spending several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely.

04/08/2013 11:46 PMPosted by Arilith
D: You needed heroic dungeons cleared to do raids. (Hell Kara had an attunement that required you to run H-Steamvault, Shadowlabs, and Shattered Halls, then H-Black Morass).


Not related to spending several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely.

Also, no, it didn't. Kara required nothing beyond normals.

Tempest Keep required H Arcatraz, Shattered Halls, Steamvault, and Shadow Labyrinth.

SSC required H Slave Pens.

04/08/2013 11:46 PMPosted by Arilith
E: When you wanted to level your alt to raid with your guild, you had to do all these rep grinds/attunements ALL over again.


Not related to spending several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely.

All of these things you mentioned were things you had to do once per character and then you were *done.* You did not need to keep doing them every week.

P.S. Don't forget the long quest chain in Shadowmoon Valley needed to even begin the TK attunement.

Lesser charms aren't mandatory. What people do overlook is the fact that the Mogu Runes of Fate don't always yield loot. It's about a 1/5 to 1/6 chance to give loot. Now this is assuming that it isn't loot you already have or loot that you don't really want.


Clearing 12/12 gives 24 items on 10 man per week. If we had exactly 10 raiders who used three coins each, that's an extra 4.5 items per week - an 18.75% increase in loot. Not only that, but the loot you get from coins is more likely to be usable - it can't be for a spec not in the raid and people use the coins on bosses they need loot the most from. If you consider a 10 man raid with a 13 person roster where everyone uses three coins, now you're at 5.85 extra items per week - 24.375% increase minimum. More in practice (for the reasons above), probably something like 30-35% more loot.
Balkoth, I agree, and it's even more dramatic on 25 man. I've personally had a pretty good drop-rate from coins, but even if I don't win anything, the raid as a whole is gearing up more quickly due to the coin drops, which means less competition for the boss drops.

Digerati, I have the Brawlers invite on my Druid, but I'm not really into solo play, so I haven't done anything with them yet. Other people in the thread might find it useful though. Another option I hadn't thought of before is getting an alchemist guildie to make a stack or two of Potion of Deepholm for me. The mats are pretty cheap now, and it's just a portal away from SW.

I'd already been trying to group for dailies, but usually did the PVE ones rather than PVP. I've found it's easy to find one or two people to group with, but getting a full group of 5 is likely to take longer than the dailies themselves, unless some of my guildies need to do them.
Beyond the cloaks, I also found there's a str ring you can buy from the Brawler's Guild Quartermaster that takes you to the brawl pub on a 1hr cd, which is sorta close to Stormwind too. Cost was 3k something I think? The best cloak of coordination is a 2hr port, but they all have separate cds to my knowledge so you can have multiples.


There's also the dalaran ring, i dont believe it shares a CD with hearthstones (not sure if it does with cloaks, probably).

If you're loaded with gold, Jaina's locket works (iirc ports are back in dala) to get you to org and such.
Clearing 12/12 gives 24 items on 10 man per week. If we had exactly 10 raiders who used three coins each, that's an extra 4.5 items per week - an 18.75% increase in loot. Not only that, but the loot you get from coins is more likely to be usable - it can't be for a spec not in the raid and people use the coins on bosses they need loot the most from. If you consider a 10 man raid with a 13 person roster where everyone uses three coins, now you're at 5.85 extra items per week - 24.375% increase minimum. More in practice (for the reasons above), probably something like 30-35% more loot.

It's even bigger when you're not clearing 12/12, because you can still use the same number of charms (as long as you're killing at least 3 bosses).

At 3/12, the additional 5.85 extra items per week is a 97.5% increase in loot. And that applies at 3/12H as well.

In other words, charms are even more powerful than your estimate at lower levels of progression.
I did dailies in BC. Back then it was for money though. I also recall killing the same NPC's over and over and over again to get marks to turn in for rep so I could buy raid gear.

I also remember making sure I did all the faction quests before I spent "several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely" in running the normal dungeon many, many times.

The grind was different, but still and always there.
I did dailies in BC. Back then it was for money though. I also recall killing the same NPC's over and over and over again to get marks to turn in for rep so I could buy raid gear.

I also remember making sure I did all the faction quests before I spent "several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely" in running the normal dungeon many, many times.

The grind was different, but still and always there.


None of those activities you listed are indefinite, they all had finite (if long by todays standards) end points.

Apples and oranges.
Arianity, I mentioned the ring earlier, but it seems rather pricey just to save a few minutes per day on dailies. I think the potions are a reasonable compromise, though. :)

Pocketpairs, I don't object to doing dungeons or raids, I do object to needing to do dailies indefinitely. It's a very different level of grind than anything WoW has required of me prior to MoP. I didn't start playing until Wrath, but I did normal BC dungeons until I could unlock the heroic ones, since a friend of mine and I wanted to do the achieves. It only took a few runs of each to be able to unlock the heroics. While a slightly faster rate of VP acquisition would be nice, I don't have any major objection to the capping VP grind. The Farmville chores are mildly annoying, but they only take a couple of minutes, and they aren't directly linked to raid performance or gear droprates.
Apples and oranges.


This will always be the case when comparing different types of grinds, but I did more grindy stuff in BC than I'm doing now.

Dailies lasted several tiers and there was certainly no discernible end to them.
Pocketpairs, I don't object to doing dungeons or raids, I do object to needing to do dailies indefinitely. It's a very different level of grind than anything WoW has required of me prior to MoP. I didn't start playing until Wrath, but I did normal BC dungeons until I could unlock the heroic ones, since a friend of mine and I wanted to do the achieves. It only took a few runs of each to be able to unlock the heroics


It was not that way in BC, and there was no dungeon finder.

So instead of dailies you want to do additional LFR's to get Mogu Runes of Fate?
04/10/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
I did dailies in BC. Back then it was for money though. I also recall killing the same NPC's over and over and over again to get marks to turn in for rep so I could buy raid gear.


I remember that as well. Except I was done with the marks in under a month and never did them again.

04/10/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
I also remember making sure I did all the faction quests before I spent "several hours a week doing something monotonous indefinitely" in running the normal dungeon many, many times.


I remember that as well. Except I was done with the dungeons in a month or two and never did them again.

The grind was different, but still and always there.


I remember the grind being different. But it wasn't always there.

04/10/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
This will always be the case when comparing different types of grinds, but I did more grindy stuff in BC than I'm doing now.


Then you're obviously not doing much now because I'm doing far more now than I did back then.

Dailies lasted several tiers and there was certainly no discernible end to them.


You've got to be kidding me.

Netherwing? Did not last for several tiers and didn't need to do them, pure vanity.

Skyguard? Did not last for several tiers and didn't need to do them, pure vanity.

Ogri'la? Did not last for several tiers and didn't need to do them, pure vanity.

Sunwell? Was the last tier, so clearly couldn't last several tiers, was pretty much pure vanity.

None of the dailies were expected for raiding. And lasted a month or two, if that.

04/10/2013 06:42 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
It was not that way in BC, and there was no dungeon finder.


The reputation was lowered to Honored later in BC - was Revered initially. And yes, no dungeon finder, so finding a group was more difficult.

So instead of dailies you want to do additional LFR's to get Mogu Runes of Fate?


If you told me I had to do each wing of the current LFR twice and then I'd get 3 Mogu Runes of Fate per week for the rest of the tier, I'd accept in a heartbeat.

Or if you told me I had to do 30 heroic dungeons and then I'd get 3 Mogu Runes of Fate per week for the rest of the tier, I'd accept in a heartbeat.

That would be more like BC.
Balkoth basically summed it up. Going to save myself the time from just quoting it.
I remember that as well. Except I was done with the marks in under a month and never did them again.


Interesting tale. I wasn't.

I remember that as well. Except I was done with the dungeons in a month or two and never did them again.


*shrug* I was still doing them late into the expansion.

I remember the grind being different. But it wasn't always there.


If you needed money for raid mats, it was.

Then you're obviously not doing much now because I'm doing far more now than I did back then.


I'm not. Getting 90 lesser coins take me maybe 2 hours tops a week.

You've got to be kidding me


I'm not. I needed a constant stream of cash for raiding mats. They weren't always vanity. It was an alternate way to get fast flying as well which required no small amount of money back then.

If you told me I had to do each wing of the current LFR twice and then I'd get 3 Mogu Runes of Fate per week for the rest of the tier, I'd accept in a heartbeat.

Or if you told me I had to do 30 heroic dungeons and then I'd get 3 Mogu Runes of Fate per week for the rest of the tier, I'd accept in a heartbeat.


I don't know what to tell you. It would take you longer to get it done that way though.
Balkoth basically summed it up. Going to save myself the time from just quoting it.


:)

04/10/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
Interesting tale. I wasn't.


That's nice. However, if people were done within a month and never had to do it again, clearly it wasn't indefinite and could be done much faster than you did it.

04/10/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
*shrug* I was still doing them late into the expansion.


For reputation? Then you were barely doing them. Raiders got their rep done in a month or two.

04/10/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
If you needed money for raid mats, it was.


None of us are complaining about doing dailies for money. If dailies only gave money, we'd either do them when we needed cash or find another way to make money. I'm strongly inclined to believe you're just trolling me at this point.

04/10/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
I'm not. Getting 90 lesser coins take me maybe 2 hours tops a week.


Times four weeks per month plus, say six months per tier. So 48 hours per tier spent (plus valor capping, of course, which is even more time).

04/10/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
I'm not. I needed a constant stream of cash for raiding mats. They weren't always vanity. It was an alternate way to get fast flying as well which required no small amount of money back then.


This has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I don't know what to tell you. It would take you longer to get it done that way though.


I'd need to spend 48 hours a tier (using your numbers) getting coins. I could easily do 4-6 dungeons an hour - which would be 7.5 hours at most for dungeons, possibly only 5 hours. I could also do each LFR wing in perhaps 2 hours average, if we're factoring in stuff like Durumu. So 16 hours for both wings twice.

Both of the ways I mentioned would be far faster.
That's nice. However, if people were done within a month and never had to do it again, clearly it wasn't indefinite and could be done much faster than you did it.


There was no stop gap measure in place to save you from yourself. So some people had lots of time to grind NPC's, others didn't. This is an interesting conversation we're having.

For reputation? Then you were barely doing them. Raiders got their rep done in a month or two.


For cash. The limiting factor and the reason for the grind was different back then. Right now you've identified the reasons for doing dailies as needing Mogu Runes of Fate. Back then, the reason for doing dailies was money. In both cases, the reward was a scarce resource. Someone will undoubtedly call that apples/oranges, but in every MMO, there is always something that is scarce...something that is providing the motivation to do things.

I'm strongly inclined to believe you're just trolling me at this point.


I can only tell you why I and some others did dailies back then. Dailies participation seemed very high. I know being on a low pop server, there were always people doing them. It's hard for me to believe it was just for cool mounts.

But you and I are quite different. I have many times parted ways with a game because the gameplay was no longer appealing or sustainable. At no time, did I feel the urge to complain on the forums about why I think my needs were more important than anyone else's. And when I moved on to a new game, there was a new grind...there's always a grind.

Times four weeks per month plus, say six months per tier. So 48 hours per tier spent (plus valor capping, of course, which is even more time).


Ok, your math seems correct.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.


Because you say so? You say you need Mogu Runes of Fate to raid effectively. I say I needed cash to raid effectively.

I'd need to spend 48 hours a tier (using your numbers) getting coins. I could easily do 4-6 dungeons an hour - which would be 7.5 hours at most for dungeons, possibly only 5 hours. I could also do each LFR wing in perhaps 2 hours average, if we're factoring in stuff like Durumu. So 16 hours for both wings twice.


So you multiplied my number, but not yours? Ah, I see. You thought you were doing LFR twice a tier. Haha, good one. Sure, if you only had to do it the one extra time for the whole tier, that would be faster. This hypothetical situation seems a bit unbalanced to me though.
04/10/2013 08:18 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
This has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.


Because you say so? You say you need Mogu Runes of Fate to raid effectively. I say I needed cash to raid effectively.

And there are sooooooooo many ways to get prepared for a raid with consumables. You need runes there are two ways: pet battles, dailies.
And there are sooooooooo many ways to get prepared for a raid with consumables. You need runes there are two ways: pet battles, dailies.


Now there is, yes. Gold is no longer the scarce resource that it was.
04/10/2013 08:57 PMPosted by Pocketpairs
And there are sooooooooo many ways to get prepared for a raid with consumables. You need runes there are two ways: pet battles, dailies.


Now there is, yes. Gold is no longer the scarce resource that it was.


Post elixir change (only allowed 1 offense/defense), it hasn't really changed, other than irrelevant inflation.

Because you say so? You say you need Mogu Runes of Fate to raid effectively. I say I needed cash to raid effectively.


Then why did you bring up the completely irrelevant 5k gold fast flying?

For cash. The limiting factor and the reason for the grind was different back then. Right now you've identified the reasons for doing dailies as needing Mogu Runes of Fate. Back then, the reason for doing dailies was money. In both cases, the reward was a scarce resource. Someone will undoubtedly call that apples/oranges, but in every MMO, there is always something that is scarce...something that is providing the motivation to do things.


apples:
mogue runes only come from pet battles/dailies

oranges:
gold could/can be foudn from dailies/farming/grinding/dungeons/crafting/AH, and various other misc that i probably forgot.

It was also not gated, in any way. Again, jsut because you farmed weekly via dailies for gold, does not somehow imply that everyone did it that way, or that it was required to do it that way.

It's also not indefinite. If you know the average amount of mats you can consume, you can farm intensely in a short period of time and get it over with.

Essentially, they're completely different other than the fact that they required some method of (wildly varying) grind. You seem to be equating the two because of the method you happened to personally choose to complete the gold grind.

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