The increasing memory demands of raids

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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yes, because it wasn't really my point and I was talking about graphs that I can't post on the forum and people here aren't looking at.


I'm sorry but it's kind of useless, since you don't look at EVERY single mechanic. I'm a DPS, do I care about Hard Stare? no. You can't just look at every single mechanic and go "welp, there's a bajillion to watch out for on this fight!" Go look at Thorim and try that, you'll have a BLAST.


We get it just fine, but to bring up the likes of DS in any discussion of complex is not the way to try and get your message through. It's also hilarious you are attempting to talk down to us.


but my point was that DS was NOT really that complex, but some of the TOT fights are starting to pass the line of complexity, and that future tiers after TOT are going to be a problem if they continue adding more and more and more. We're really at a breaking point where I'm not asking them to nerf TOT, but they should start thinking about how information is presented in the dungeon journal for LFR, and they should start thinking about having a larger gap between the number of mechanics they introduce in the LFR vs normal vs heroic versions to better differentiate the difficulty by using memory capacity knowledge to their benefit.
The point is that 2, 3, 4, 5 years down the line when every single boss you fight has 20 to 30 things you have to remember and track is going to set the bar for raiding so high that most people aren't going to be able to do it.


You're assuming it will scale up linearly. the addition of boss mechanics isn't a function of time. It's a function of player capacity (which got huge unatural boosts with things like DBM, youtube videos, and for this teir, to paraphrase blues "use less hard enrages, but you will die to more mechanics")

Making LFR fights with tons of mechanics that people just ignore isn't ideal game design - because there isn't any clear outline of what is or isn't important to focus on.


That isn't necesarily a problem with the # of mechanics, just presentation. Like other people have mentioned, the dungeon journal in particular could use refinement, to be more "bullet point" (ala youtube videos). Look at the DJ for a fight. Go watch a fatboss vid. Fatboss is that summary- blizzard just isn't doing it in house.

I think the DJ would benefit from a bullet point style (on by default), and a toggle for the lore/full version.

We could also go back to the DS-style where we start turning off mechanics completely. But that has consequences too, which is why they tried something different.
04/07/2013 02:03 PMPosted by Lissanna
and that future tiers after TOT are going to be a problem if they continue adding more and more and more.


And that's bad somehow....? even Blizzard admitted they have to make fights more complex with the mods we have today. Number checks aren't fun (purely number checks, not number + mechanics check.) Well they are fun for DPS, but that's it.

-

Anyone know if I can post an Imgur link here without getting it deleted/etc? it'd be my own screenshot, not someone elses.


You're assuming it will scale up linearly. the addition of boss mechanics isn't a function of time. It's a function of player capacity (which got huge unatural boosts with things like DBM, youtube videos, and for this teir, to paraphrase blues "use less hard enrages, but you will die to more mechanics")


Based on the numbers I present on the blog post, It has been scaling up fairly linearly to this point, with the exception that they may revert backwards a little bit for the first raid tier of an expansion and then increase up from there every expansion (and maybe some of their designers make difficult fights with few things to remember more than others). If the developers aren't using player abilities outside of heroic-mode player abilities when they design the fights, there's no reason to assume that they would (without outside intervention) decide when enough is enough. It's scaling linearly enough that it is entirely possible for Blizzard to have normal & LFR fights exceed player capacities, especially when LFR players can't be assumed to have studied in advance.

I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong, and it's likely that most of the people who would post on the R&D forums are playing in ways that differ from the full range of players who are going to be attempting the content. I understand that championing for the under-dog casual players isn't a popular idea around here, so my choice of forum to copy my post into may have been poor. However, I enjoy these types of discussions even when people disagree with me. It keeps me on my toes, and the discussion here overall has been fairly constructive. :)


Anyone know if I can post an Imgur link here without getting it deleted/etc? it'd be my own screenshot, not someone elses.


If you want, you can post the Imgur link on my blog post and then post that comment link here without problems.
Anyone know if I can post an Imgur link here without getting it deleted/etc? it'd be my own screenshot, not someone elses.


Pretty sure you can.
Anyone know if I can post an Imgur link here without getting it deleted/etc? it'd be my own screenshot, not someone elses.


It should be fine as long as names are blacked out, i believe
Alright, http://i.imgur.com/LtU64g5.png - that is Thorim. Yogg is even worse, yet you think Jin is information overload? add 3 more to Thorim for HM.
The problem is the enormous gap between LFR and normal modes. Adding a 4th difficulty level would probably be too much bloat. But perhaps the solution is pre-planned progressive nerfs? Unfortunately the reaction to these on the forums is mostly negative.
That isn't necesarily a problem with the # of mechanics, just presentation. Like other people have mentioned, the dungeon journal in particular could use refinement, to be more "bullet point" (ala youtube videos). Look at the DJ for a fight. Go watch a fatboss vid. Fatboss is that summary- blizzard just isn't doing it in house.


Sure, this is really one of the points that is important. The dungeon journal for LFR in particular isn't helpful when it is a huge list of 20+ points and only 5 of them are going to matter for you. That requires outside knowledge for the fight that isn't found in the game, or to just make none of the mechanics matter at all. I'm just not sure that making none of the mechanics matter at all is a solution to the problem of the constant increase in demands for learning the boss encounters.

There's a better way to make the difficulty levels scale better between LFR (trivialize everything) and normal-mode (the same as heroic, but hurts slightly less with 1 to 2 fewer mechanics).
I think you are confusing the Dungeon Journal to be something it isn't.

Currently the Dungeon Journal is a reference tool for boss abilities. Which it does relatively well.

What you seem to be looking for is an actual outlined Strat.
I think you are confusing he Dungeon Journal to be something it isn't.

Currently the Dungeon Journal is a reference tool for boss abilities. Which it does relatively well.

What you seem to be looking for is an actual outlined Strat.


Well, no. The dungeon journal for LFR doesn't need to be a strategy guide.

However, in the future 10+ years this game may continue to have content, a continued linear trend for additional boss mechanics and complexity may become an increasingly more difficult problem for a playerbase that may have families, jobs, and other responsibilities.

Thus, the LFR versions should either have significantly fewer mechanics than normal-mode does for ease of learning without outside strategy guides (and a cap on the number of potential mechanics you have to attend to in their design process), or they are going to have to keep making tons of mechanics in LFR just be trival enough to totally ignore and let everyone treat every boss like it's patchwerk (and let everyone continue to stand in fires that tickle instead of hurt).

I am suggesting that option #1 for LFR (fewer mechanics that are meaningful), is better than option # 2 (tons of mechanics that are meaningless because casual players who don't use outside strategy guides/addons can't attend to them all).

I'm arguing that normal-modes should have up to 4 more mechanics than LFR versions, but still stay at a reasonable number where the lower end of casual raiders in the next expansion and beyond aren't required to memorize a "dance" that you learned from watching videos, but instead the number of mechanics stay within what you could reasonably handle without advanced prep (which some previous raid tiers have 100% done, and others haven't). That the fact the dungeon journal even needs 28 bullet points to explain all the Durumu mechanics (with fewer than 28 being the number of things you have to attend to) is also silly and an inefficient use of people's limited time. The fact that my guild has to require people to read strategy threads and sign them on our forums isn't really an ideal way to learn content - and wasn't something we needed to really emphasize until recently. I think there's a better balance between patchwerk being too boring and having fights where you have to memorize fight mechanics in advance.

I'm arguing that heroic-mode encounters can still rely on people's long-term memory storage abilities to learn the dances from watching videos, because people will have learned the normal-modes first, so adding another 4 abilities ontop of a normal-mode version would be perfectly doable for the types of guilds who run heroics, and that in some cases, this may be 8 more mechanics than the LFR version should have.
In TOT, most guilds are no longer "solving a puzzle", but being forced to memorize choreographed fights from strategy videos and guides, because working memory capacities have been exceeded for everyone but the most heroic hard-core raiders.


yeah only the most heroic hardcore raiders have the memory capabilities to do such complex fights

fights shouldn't be super complex because the rest of the population cant kill those fights within 1 or 2 pulls

i agree with this post. i don't like working on fights i just want more dragon soul style raids
Through this thread you have started by talking about how LFR and normal is too complex for casuals and now you are talking about how in the future 10 years down the line content will ramp up in mechanics which is a complete assumption.

LFR was designed to allow players to see content that they would not be able to see from not doing it in normal mode. My personal opinion is that your "option #2" is a better design because it allows LFR to be a testing ground for entry raiders.

When LFR is just a couple toned down mechanics and becomes nothing more than a Patchwerk fight it offers nothing but a chance of gear and a place to see boss room design, which is boring. When LFR has the normal mode mechanics and players can learn to execute them in a forgiving setting then LFR also offers a place to teach players how to dodge thing, how to not stand in bad, and how to perform a DPS rotation while executing mechanics.
i agree with this post. i don't like working on fights i just want more dragon soul style raids


Ahahaha, Crook. stahpit!

yeah only the most heroic hardcore raiders have the memory capabilities to do such complex fights


Except that nothing you wrote is what I said or meant at all. If you want to constructively join the conversation, I'd be happy to discuss more.

If you guys don't actually want to have a reasonable discussion, I'll just go back to my 60-80 hour a week job and the pile of 20 papers I have to grade.

yeah only the most heroic hardcore raiders have the memory capabilities to do such complex fights


I'm arguing that heroic raiders aren't using their short-term or working-memory abilities to learn bosses, but instead are memorizing mechanics and using long-term memory abilities. It's not that casual players can't memorize mechanics and use long-term memory abilities, but that LFR and normal-mode versions shouldn't require that as an assumption.


i need you to realize that your suggestion is ~bad for the game~

why shouldn't normal mode casuals need to actually work and progress through fights the same way heroic raiders do?

who cares about short-term, working-memory, long-term memory, etc? why do you feel like you have to differentiate it ? just let everyone pull bosses and actually progress on them

please use your mvp powers to lock this thread, go tweet gc to lock this please ty


please use your mvp powers to lock this thread, go tweet gc to lock this please ty


MVPs don't have moderation powers.


please use your mvp powers to lock this thread, go tweet gc to lock this please ty


MVPs don't have moderation powers.


i'm gonna have to ask you to please stop phantom editing your posts so we can have an actual discussion here

also, please let gc know this thread should be locked. thank you for your time

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