5.3 upgrades, and t16

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
we've seen normal gear get to 522 ilvl, to offset t14 heroic upgraded items (517), as devs want to encourage people to use the new gear. but what happens next tier? heroic thunderforged gear is 549 when upgraded....so will t16 normal be 552?

in any case, stats are getting to an absurd level. so why bring back upgrades, when it's making a problem (scaling) worse? I can almost guarantee for example fury warriors/fire mages getting nerfed, since they will have a metric ton of crit and str/int.

I like upgrading items instead of having useless valor, but ilvl really needs to stop inflating so fast. then again, I kinda wanna see what happens when a bm monk can hit 100% stagger.
I feel the item squish is coming, not a fan of the idea, but it's almost time for it.
I'm actually a fan of useless valor. IMO the cata system worked best. Valor will buy raiders a good quick few pieces and then valor can be used to buy/sell BoE items. This forces raiders to grind valor at first and then gives them the choice to continue grinding for gold or flat out stop. With upgrades in place we are capping every week, period.
I'm ready for the squish.
I'm ready for the squish.


I was hoping so much that MoP would bring it. This game's numbers are out of control. It's not fun to gain upgrades and see the benefits of them when you can't tell what they are. You can see the difference between 500 and 600 dps, you can't between 82000 and 85000.
we've seen normal gear get to 522 ilvl, to offset t14 heroic upgraded items (517), as devs want to encourage people to use the new gear. but what happens next tier? heroic thunderforged gear is 549 when upgraded....so will t16 normal be 552?

in any case, stats are getting to an absurd level. so why bring back upgrades, when it's making a problem (scaling) worse? I can almost guarantee for example fury warriors/fire mages getting nerfed, since they will have a metric ton of crit and str/int.

I like upgrading items instead of having useless valor, but ilvl really needs to stop inflating so fast. then again, I kinda wanna see what happens when a bm monk can hit 100% stagger.
Yea I'm sure the people developing the game literally had no idea the ilvls would get this high, and now all game balance is going to be ruined!

You can see the difference between 500 and 600 dps, you can't between 82000 and 85000.
While I agree with numbers being too big, but that's a terrible comparison.
500:600 is like 82,000:98,400 which is actually pretty reasonable.
Yea I'm sure the people developing the game literally had no idea the ilvls would get this high, and now all game balance is going to be ruined!


blizzard created this problem with item upgrades. the only reason 522 gear is in normals, is to get people to get rid of their 517 2/2 heroic gear. and now with thunderforged gear that can be upgraded, that means t16 normal gear will be even higher than comparing t14 -> t15.

the game isnt ruined at all, but balance is going to be all over the place. we all know how well mages and warriors scale compared to other classes. fire mages might be shooting nonstop pyroblasts in t16. :p
While I agree with numbers being too big, but that's a terrible comparison.
500:600 is like 82,000:98,400 which is actually pretty reasonable.


You can't tell the difference between 82 and 98.4? What about 500000 and 600000?
Hey Blizzard, PLEASE keep the idea of upgrading items around! This is one of the best ideas you guys have came up with in a long time. No matter what you hear from some of the minority players, upgrading items is AWESOME!
I like upgrades, it means I can upgrade my weapon/trinkets for a big increase. only issue is it kinda forces you to cap valor every week (which is tedious).

I guess the point of this post is that stats are getting out of hand. remember when 3k dps was a lot? :|
I could care less about if I was doing 500 dps or 5 million dps.

What I do care about is the balance issues. Warriors and their crit, rogues and energy capping, almost every dps class can't reforge out of enough hit/expertise. I can't imagine what T16 will be like.
blizzard created this problem with item upgrades. the only reason 522 gear is in normals, is to get people to get rid of their 517 2/2 heroic gear. and now with thunderforged gear that can be upgraded, that means t16 normal gear will be even higher than comparing t14 -> t15.

the game isnt ruined at all, but balance is going to be all over the place. we all know how well mages and warriors scale compared to other classes. fire mages might be shooting nonstop pyroblasts in t16. :p


This. IIRC, Blizz said that gear scaling and ilevels got out of control in Cata due to heroic modes and having an extra tier (TotC). Even then, we only saw epic gear range from 200 to 284. Now, we're looking at gear ranging from 476 to 549 at only the second tier. T16 normals will have to drop 554 to get people to replace their heroic thunderforged 2/2 upgraded gear. If they put the vendors in again, that means we're looking at having a top ilevel of 575 by the end of this expansion (assuming no more "thunderforged" gimmick).

The upgrade vendors should stay gone. They introduce the idea that people feel they need to cap valor every week long after VP gear stopped being useful and it adds a level of gear scaling that probably wasn't originally intended. A vendor that trades mats for VP would make for a useful sink without being a game changer.
Seeing tanks at 1 million health soon and DPS doing 200-300k DPS on fights is kinda getting out of hand if someone asked me my opinion.

I kinda wish they didn't do the item level upgrade in 5.3 just because it'll get worse, and I kinda like the fact I have no reason to VP cap each week right now.
they're just numbers
*shrug*
As far as I know the scaling is actually less drastic than it was in WoTLK. Read an MVP post a few months ago about how a crit epic in Naxx provided vastly more crit percentage than a crit epic in MoP T14. It just has Bigger Numbers That Look Scary.
The upgrade vendors should stay gone. They introduce the idea that people feel they need to cap valor every week long after VP gear stopped being useful and it adds a level of gear scaling that probably wasn't originally intended. A vendor that trades mats for VP would make for a useful sink without being a game changer.


This is how I feel as well.

I think they will come back though. Blizzard likely feels VP upgrades will prevent people from unsubbing between tiers. Although, if they don't change the VP scheme they may burn people out on the original 5-mans and scenarios (since they are the most efficient method of obtaining VP).
As far as I know the scaling is actually less drastic than it was in WoTLK. Read an MVP post a few months ago about how a crit epic in Naxx provided vastly more crit percentage than a crit epic in MoP T14. It just has Bigger Numbers That Look Scary.


A quick glance at some crit pieces doesn't show too big of a difference. The only 489 crit robe has 1.2% crit while 213 crit robes ranged from .91 - 1.68% crit. Using the absolute lowest level epics show 476 at ~1.03% crit vs 200 ranging .96 - 1.11%.

If you look at Ulduar 10 pieces vs ToT normal non-thunderforged robes, we get:
219: 1% - 1.66% crit
522: 1.5% - 1.75% crit.

That's using the lowest ilevel pieces available in each tier. I'd say we're well on our way to outscaling Wrath.

edit: I should note that I'm only looking at cloth pieces and crit rating. Crit gained from intellect is different now because Wrath pieces had lower int at the time and spellpower instead. Original Mage T7 25 had 77 int vs the 85 it has now so the true amount of crit it gave is .048% lower than today.
The gear changes in Cata (switching back to primary stats instead of AP/Spell Power, allowing reforging) were positive, but I'm not sure they've quite figured out what to do to tweak the way gear works since then. Upgrades are great to have a valor dump, but it's a little crazy for one item to have 5 different versions (LFR, Normal, Normal Thunderforged, Heroic, Heroic Thunderforged) plus upgrades. It just seems messy.

Thunderforged was a patch on the 10 vs 25 issue that once upgrades are added back will just seem clunky.

Then we get into lingering issues with capped stats. Hit and expertise hard-caps complicate gearing choices and not in a fun 'gear your character in the flavor you like' kind of way. They're often important thresholds to hit and the best place to gem or reforge at low gear levels, and then at high gear levels are a pain to work around to not waste too many stat points from overcapping. Spirit continues to be 60% useless to Mages and Locks, but not SPriests, who can also compete with Mages and Locks for +Hit Cloth.

The game's not broken, but it feels like they got partway there with fixing the issues that there were, and have now regressed, rather than making more progress.
I'm actually a fan of useless valor. IMO the cata system worked best. Valor will buy raiders a good quick few pieces and then valor can be used to buy/sell BoE items. This forces raiders to grind valor at first and then gives them the choice to continue grinding for gold or flat out stop. With upgrades in place we are capping every week, period.


I agree, would be nice to be able to spend it on offspec gear
I'm actually a fan of useless valor. IMO the cata system worked best. Valor will buy raiders a good quick few pieces and then valor can be used to buy/sell BoE items. This forces raiders to grind valor at first and then gives them the choice to continue grinding for gold or flat out stop. With upgrades in place we are capping every week, period.


Totally agree. I hate what valor is in mop. I liked being able to spend valor to sell boes, buy off spec gear, or simply not feel the need to cap valor in order to continually progress.

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