Patch 5.3 Scenario Preview

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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05/06/2013 08:28 AMPosted by Dremin
TBC and Cata also had many more dungeons than what MoP will have. They also had leftover dungeons?


Yes, for BC. I can't recall what they said about Cata's dungeons. Those were also times when dungeons were the only thing to do besides raid and PVP, also prior to raid finder which is no different than glorified dungeons.

MoP has less content than TBC and Wrath, specially if we take into consideration the amount of time it takes to make a dugneon and the amount of time to do an scenario.


Aside from the fact you're comparing two full xpacs with one that is half implemented, you're also claiming that because the scenarios are shorter to create there's less content, as in less things to do in the game. I don't see that as the case. There are a lot of scenarios, on top of dungeons and all the things I named earlier.


So vanilla left dungeons for both TBC and Wrath? I'm sorry, i'm smelling excuses here. There is no chance that Vanilla had left so many dungeons left over.

And yes, scenarios provide with less to do than dungeons, if you dont see that... And we have the problem that scenarios are made for only one role.
So vanilla left dungeons for both TBC and Wrath? I'm sorry, i'm smelling excuses here. There is no chance that Vanilla had left so many dungeons left over.


So you're saying there's no chance that Blizz might actually work on things over years instead of start from scratch every time there's an xpac? Or that they might create something, then decide not to implement it or decide to save it for later when it's more suited to what they're trying to accomplish?

And yes, scenarios provide with less to do than dungeons, if you dont see that... And we have the problem that scenarios are made for only one role.


The problem we have is you seem to the think scenarios and dungeons are the only things that count as content in this game. By the way, you flamed Cata...guess what that had a lot of? Dungeons. I'll take 4 scenarios with heroic modes, a new BG, more to Brawler's guild, and an actual story over ZA/ZG type dungeons any day of the week.
05/06/2013 08:50 AMPosted by Dremin
So vanilla left dungeons for both TBC and Wrath? I'm sorry, i'm smelling excuses here. There is no chance that Vanilla had left so many dungeons left over.


So you're saying there's no chance that Blizz might actually work on things over years instead of start from scratch every time there's an xpac? Or that they might create something, then decide not to implement it or decide to save it for later when it's more suited to what they're trying to accomplish?



Something, yes, having several entire dungeons for 4 years? No.


And yes, scenarios provide with less to do than dungeons, if you dont see that... And we have the problem that scenarios are made for only one role.


The problem we have is you seem to the think scenarios and dungeons are the only things that count as content in this game. By the way, you flamed Cata...guess what that had a lot of? Dungeons. I'll take 4 scenarios with heroic modes, a new BG, more to Brawler's guild, and an actual story over ZA/ZG type dungeons any day of the week.


No, i dont think scenarios and dungeons are the only thing, and yes, Cata had the same problem. Because, you see, the problem is neglecting content. Cata focused too much on dungeons and neglected the rest, MoP focused too much on dailies and scenarios and neglected dungeons.

TBC and Wrath had soemthing in commong, they had some dungeons, some raids, some dailies, some of everything, and they were hugely succesful.

MoP sucks for the same reason cata sucked, they dont provide a enough of everything.

I would take the 7 dungeons Wrath had over MoP over those things you listed from MoP. You se, you keep comparing MoP with the failure of Cata when MoP have the same problems.
WTH!?

Two Horde storyline scenarios, one Alliance storyline scenario, and a scenario for both?

Seriously, Blizzard? Can you get any more obvious?
Seem like I remember a few 5 man dungeons where I had to turn into a human to complete it... I don't see what's the big deal. I never felt like "WTH I have to get transformed with the illusion of being human!"
I would take the 7 dungeons Wrath had over MoP over those things you listed from MoP. You se, you keep comparing MoP with the failure of Cata when MoP have the same problems.


I'm not the one that brought up Cata. You did.

Because, you see, the problem is neglecting content. Cata focused too much on dungeons and neglected the rest, MoP focused too much on dailies and scenarios and neglected dungeons.TBC and Wrath had soemthing in commong, they had some dungeons, some raids, some dailies, some of everything, and they were hugely succesful.


BC and Wotlk had those things in common...because that's all they had. You sat in Dala and Shatt and spammed for a group/begged your guild. There was linear progression; you didn't go out and kill world bosses or whatever. You ran dungeons till your eyes were sore, then raided. In between raiding, you ran dungeons, and there wasn't the luxury of LFG or LFR or any form of alternative.

I'm happy that that's no longer the case, and I honestly don't feel as if dungeons were neglected. There's 9 of them, and I feel like Blizz experimented with the format: there's 9 parts to raid finder, which, when you think about it, are basically dungeons. Then there's already 12 or more scenarios which are mini-dungeons. Seems like they weren't neglecting dungeons as much as they were implementing new forms of dungeons.

Maybe Blizz could've appeased players with more normal/starter dungeons as we leveled, but I always felt those catch-up dungeons they tacked on in patches like Toc and ICC obliterated the flow of xpacs.
Why is Blizzard pushing scenarios so much?

Think of the amount of dungeons they could have made in this time.

So stupid.

Would love an explination other than "it's less time consuming to make a scenario."
Because LFR fills the catch-up role that post-launch 5-mans were designed to fill.

Also if they add new 5-mans with new/better loot than the existing 5s, those will be the only ones anyone queues for anymore. Everyone running the same 9 dungeons for a year and a half is probably the lesser evil than running the same 2-3 dungeons for six months.


To alleviate that problem just do the ICC heroic model instead of the HoT one. Don't have separate queues for the new 5-mans, but have the queue somewhat prefer to put people with higher ilvls towards the new ones.
05/06/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Dremin
BC and Wotlk had those things in common...because that's all they had. You sat in Dala and Shatt and spammed for a group/begged your guild. There was linear progression; you didn't go out and kill world bosses or whatever. You ran dungeons till your eyes were sore, then raided. In between raiding, you ran dungeons, and there wasn't the luxury of LFG or LFR or any form of alternative.


For BC, maybe, but for Wrath, that's not true at all.

In Wrath, we had multiple tiers of raids (from Naxx to ICC/RS), multiple tiers of Dungeons (release, ToC, ICC), one-shot raids (Vault of Archavon, Malygos, Sartharion) a huge daily hub (Argent Tournament), and even a PvP zone so good that many PvE players would venture into it (Wintergrasp).

And the best thing was: there were no convoluted requirements. You weren't forced to do dailies, you didn't need to grind rep, you didn't need to farm charms, you didn't need to Valor cap, you didn't need to unlock gates behind gates behind gates, the way we have to now. All the content was readily available. If you felt like playing WoW, you would jump in and immediately do your favorite activities, rather than having to complete a list of chores every week.

Dailies were truly optional. Dungeons or Raids came in many flavors: in that expansion, I remember doing them in at least three different ways (organized events with my guild, in spontaneous PUGs, or through LFD). These days, my guilds barely run any raids, PUGs are far less common, and LFD is completely irrelevant, replaced by the dreaded LFR.

05/06/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Dremin
I'm happy that that's no longer the case, and I honestly don't feel as if dungeons were neglected. There's 9 of them, and I feel like Blizz experimented with the format: there's 9 parts to raid finder, which, when you think about it, are basically dungeons. Then there's already 12 or more scenarios which are mini-dungeons. Seems like they weren't neglecting dungeons as much as they were implementing new forms of dungeons.


LFR is nothing like dungeons, and that is on of the main problems with this expansion, in my opinon. DPS is a zerg-fest. Healing is all about spamming AOE, with no triage at all (and it's rare to have all of your healers actually healing, for some reason). And tanking LFR is an experience that I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy.
In Wrath, we had multiple tiers of raids (from Naxx to ICC/RS), multiple tiers of Dungeons (release, ToC, ICC), one-shot raids (Vault of Archavon, Malygos, Sartharion) a huge daily hub (Argent Tournament), and even a PvP zone so good that many PvE players would venture into it (Wintergrasp).


And no one did the old raids once those new dungeons came out, so the tiers didn't matter. I remember people doing Wintergrasp just to get to the raid, not because they loved it, and they complained about vehicle combat all the while. If they loved it, people would still join it, but, as it happens, the raid is obsolete so no one has an interest. PVPers barely even go there.

And the best thing was: there were no convoluted requirements. You weren't forced to do dailies, you didn't need to grind rep, you didn't need to farm charms, you didn't need to Valor cap, you didn't need to unlock gates behind gates behind gates, the way we have to now. All the content was readily available. If you felt like playing WoW, you would jump in and immediately do your favorite activities, rather than having to complete a list of chores every week.Dailies were truly optional. Dungeons or Raids came in many flavors: in that expansion, I remember doing them in at least three different ways (organized events with my guild, in spontaneous PUGs, or through LFD). These days, my guilds barely run any raids, PUGs are far less common, and LFD is completely irrelevant, replaced by the dreaded LFR.


You didn't do a month of dailies to unlock the real dailies at the tournament? You didn't do Sons of Hodir for shoulder enchants, which required questing to unlock? You didn't do cooking and fishing dailies for raid food buffs? You didn't do Oracle or Frenzyheart, which required questing to unlock? You didn't grind a thousand dungeons to exalt reps or do Kalu'ak dailies? Wintergrasp weeklies? Daily dungeon quests? Weekly raid quests? If you played at its launch up until ToC, you probably did all those things and had less of a choice to gain your rep/currency than we do now. Rep gave epics. Grinding dungeons also led to epics. And if you played in Wotlk, you ground its badges (I think there were 3 or 4 currencies by the end, maybe more) in dungeons and raids without alternatives.

Also, LFD didn't come out until ICC, so your third option was nonexistent for majority of that xpac.

LFR is nothing like dungeons, and that is on of the main problems with this expansion, in my opinon. DPS is a zerg-fest. Healing is all about spamming AOE, with no triage at all (and it's rare to have all of your healers actually healing, for some reason). And tanking LFR is an experience that I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy.


Sounds like a dungeon to me.
popped on here before going to bed I just want to say, as a tank healer and dps I think phasing out the 5 man model is a mistake. Scenarios dont fill the same space as 5 mans. I dont care how hard you make them , its still a cheesy version of a full heroic. I dont like scenarios, I try not to do them except 1 time a day for the bonus rep.

I feel blizzard is going in a direction that will fall flat, you cant replace steak with boloney. Scenarios dont offer the kind of adventure I think most players like, sure they are fast and cheesy, but quality over quantity is better. I think they fail at full content. Many people like to run heroics with their friends and guildmates, you just blew that with only 3 to queue. Time will tell, maybe it will workout, but I think people will leave out of boredom with only scenarios as dungeon content
05/06/2013 09:18 PMPosted by Dremin
And no one did the old raids once those new dungeons came out, so the tiers didn't matter. I remember people doing Wintergrasp just to get to the raid, not because they loved it, and they complained about vehicle combat all the while. If they loved it, people would still join it, but, as it happens, the raid is obsolete so no one has an interest. PVPers barely even go there.


You and I have very different memories from Wintergrasp, then. I had a blast with it, as did my guild, back then.

You didn't do a month of dailies to unlock the real dailies at the tournament? You didn't do Sons of Hodir for shoulder enchants, which required questing to unlock? You didn't do cooking and fishing dailies for raid food buffs? You didn't do Oracle or Frenzyheart, which required questing to unlock? You didn't grind a thousand dungeons to exalt reps or do Kalu'ak dailies? Wintergrasp weeklies? Daily dungeon quests? Weekly raid quests? If you played at its launch up until ToC, you probably did all those things and had less of a choice to gain your rep/currency than we do now. Rep gave epics. Grinding dungeons also led to epics. And if you played in Wotlk, you ground its badges (I think there were 3 or 4 currencies by the end, maybe more) in dungeons and raids without alternatives.


Sons of Hodir is the only one I will concede; we complained greatly about it back then.
However...
I didn't do cooking and fishing dailies for raid food buffs. I actually did cooking dailies, but only because I wanted the Chef's Hat.
I got to exalted with the Kalu'ak because I wanted the fishing pole.
I did dailies and weeklies because they were there. I didn't have to jump through any hoops in order to do them, though.
Badges were awesome. In that expansion, I got six characters to max level, and was able to progress to an acceptable gear level on all of them. I did dungeons and raids, got rewarded for it, had fun.

Also, you speak of "dungeons and raids without alternatives." At least I had two alternatives back then. Now, I only have LFR.

Nowadays, I only have one max level character geared enough to even set foot on Throne of Thunder. I have three other 90s, all under-geared. I dread to even think of the long process of gearing them up.

Once, I decided to go for it. I started gearing my priest, all the way to Terrace. In the process, I had to pretty much abandon my main, so I had to stop.

Basically, I am stuck with three level 90 characters that get no gameplay at all, since I cannot realistically dedicate myself to more than one character in this expansion.

Sounds like a dungeon to me.


Again, we will have to agree to disagree.

I loved healing dungeons. I despise healing LFR. They are two completely different experiences, like night and day. In the former, I actually felt responsible for saving my group, doing triage by choosing who to heal and which heal to use; making a difference. In the latter, I join in with the silent mass spamming my AoE heals, getting absolutely no gameplay out of it.

I loved tanking dungeons. I had to put up with a jerk or two once in a while; nothing I couldn't handle. I can't even stomach the idea of tanking LFR. There are jerks everywhere, nearly always.
remember the instances before icc........ do et blizz
I absolutely LOVE running 5-mans!

Heroics have changed significantly in this expansion. In short, they're easy.

I'm not a hardcore player at all. Not even close.

BC: 500+ (estimated) complete heroic 5-man runs. This is the expansion I logged in the most hours.

WOTLK: 300+ complete heroic 5-man runs. AOE fests!!!

Cata: 3 complete heroic 5-man runs. The heroics were too much and I spent months trying to complete a single run. AOE fests removed to offer more of a challenge. I had to quit the game because of what happened to 5-mans, but a year later I am back!

Mists: 100+ complete heroic 5-man runs. Will end with about 300-400 complete runs. Easy-mode is back, and I like it. (Sorry).

Blizzard, some of us LOVE running 5-mans. Just keep that in mind.
If you haven't tried them on the PTR, you may just want to give it a shot. They're fun and add some great story elements as well.

Scenarios suck if you don't play DPS ...if you want to heal or tank, you are stuck to LFR, because going with those roles into a scenario is, in your own words, "not ideal".

The game keeps losing it's touch. Scenarios are worse than LFD, no one says nothing, they don't stop for you to read the "quest", read what you are doing or enjoy the lore, if one player knows what to do, they will do it without stopping. All the ones i've tried have been plain boring and confusing.

At least in dungeons i could see the path and play the role i want. Even those like Halls of Reflection that had some story you could experience it while playing. It's not like you added a raid every patch ...in fact, only one has been added.

Actually, in comparison, back in WLK we had for the third patch:

Naxxramas, Obsidian Sanctum, Eye of Eternity, Ulduar, Trial of the Crusader, Onyxia, Vault of Archavon and Icecrown Citadel. And yet you added 4 new heroics.

If everything goes as expected, for the fourth patch (yes one more) in MoP we'll have:

Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, Terrace of Endless Spring, Throne of Thunder, Siege of Orgrimmar and world bosses. No new heroics.

Tell me please scenarios don't take time off dungeons development now. LFR is just adjusting the raid difficulty (and a few other complex things i'm sure but not as much as creating a new scenario).

Sorry if this seems like just another QQ/rant but it's how i feel about the laziness in adding more dungeons.
In Wrath, we had multiple tiers of raids (from Naxx to ICC/RS)

Oh true! I forgot Ruby Sanctum! But that was patch 3.4 so i'd have to edit the "one more patch". :P

In conclussion, four patches in, WLK vs MOP would be:

Dungeons: WLK 16 - MOP 9
Raids: WLK 9 - MOP 6

Don't make me pull out TBC and vanilla 'cus it'd leave MOP more ashamed.

EDIT: Just noticed how i don't know any of the abbreviations used for MOP instances save the 4 raids :/ No one uses them anymore. Also, sorry for the double post, didn't notice.
Dungeons: WLK 16 - MOP 9Raids: WLK 9 - MOP 6


You didn't include world bosses, which are the same as Wotlk 1-room raids like RS, Ony, EoE, OS. So WlK 9 - MoP 9...9 we know of for sure. They could still add another world boss or two.

Nowadays, I only have one max level character geared enough to even set foot on Throne of Thunder. I have three other 90s, all under-geared. I dread to even think of the long process of gearing them up.


Gearing is so easy nowadays. You should try it. My last 90 I got to MSV LFR same day I hit 90 on him. I have 3 going on 4 chars that can do LFR ToT, 4 in either MSV or HoF, and I barely play alts after I hit 90 on them; I definitely don't do dailies with them. Easier than any other xpac. For most of my alts, I do majority scenarios, world bosses, and almost no heroics till they hit raid finder, then only do raid finder.

I loved healing dungeons. I despise healing LFR. They are two completely different experiences, like night and day. In the former, I actually felt responsible for saving my group, doing triage by choosing who to heal and which heal to use; making a difference. In the latter, I join in with the silent mass spamming my AoE heals, getting absolutely no gameplay out of it.I loved tanking dungeons. I had to put up with a jerk or two once in a while; nothing I couldn't handle. I can't even stomach the idea of tanking LFR. There are jerks everywhere, nearly always.


You know what I do when I heal dungeons? Wild growth, renew, stand still, try not to fall asleep.
I have enjoyed a lot of things about 5.2, so I'm looking forward to 5.3. I really like the way storylines develop with the solo scenarios (Dominance Offensive is my favorite though, because of the Darnassus mission). REALLY looking forward to the loot changes in 5.3.
New scenarios, why even bother? Most people won't do them and the ones that do, will run them once and think that was lame.
I like solo scenarios alot.
Pre-made Heroic Scenarios?

I'm not happy about that. I play when no one else seems to be on, so that's not going to work for me, and probably quite a few others.

I understand this is an MMO, but I can get through alot of the content on my own, doing LFR and the odd guild get togethers, and prefer to play solo for the most part. Some of us won't see the new Heroic Scenarios because you're requiring them to be premades.

Thanks.
05/06/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Dremin
I would take the 7 dungeons Wrath had over MoP over those things you listed from MoP. You se, you keep comparing MoP with the failure of Cata when MoP have the same problems.


I'm not the one that brought up Cata. You did.

Because, you see, the problem is neglecting content. Cata focused too much on dungeons and neglected the rest, MoP focused too much on dailies and scenarios and neglected dungeons.TBC and Wrath had soemthing in commong, they had some dungeons, some raids, some dailies, some of everything, and they were hugely succesful.


BC and Wotlk had those things in common...because that's all they had. You sat in Dala and Shatt and spammed for a group/begged your guild. There was linear progression; you didn't go out and kill world bosses or whatever. You ran dungeons till your eyes were sore, then raided. In between raiding, you ran dungeons, and there wasn't the luxury of LFG or LFR or any form of alternative.

I'm happy that that's no longer the case, and I honestly don't feel as if dungeons were neglected. There's 9 of them, and I feel like Blizz experimented with the format: there's 9 parts to raid finder, which, when you think about it, are basically dungeons. Then there's already 12 or more scenarios which are mini-dungeons. Seems like they weren't neglecting dungeons as much as they were implementing new forms of dungeons.

Maybe Blizz could've appeased players with more normal/starter dungeons as we leveled, but I always felt those catch-up dungeons they tacked on in patches like Toc and ICC obliterated the flow of xpacs.


They are neglecting dungeons, this is the expansion with less dungeons EVER in WoW, and they said they were going to produce MORE content, not less.

And no, scenarios are NOT mini dungeons, scenarios are crappy content made for DPS only.

Raid finder is a rad, not a dungeon.

They neglected dugneons in this expansion, and you trying to say they didnt are funny.

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