Subtlety: Find Weakness 100% - New Sims

Rogue
Ideally sure we'd like to have a larger data set but my suspicion is simcraft is mishandling the meta gem for assassination and sub.

There aren't many logs for sub rogues with the strike but over the 15 or so I can't find anything below 5.8% and most are about 6.2% on jinrohk.

Similarly for assassination I can't find a lightning strike over 7.5% and most in the 7% range.


I see, thanks for the data. I'll let them know about it and see if we can go over the meta gem code again.
@FieryDemise and Dansu

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6s7v8jjmm3eyxfzf/details/3/?s=640&e=920

I think this was with a full haste build.
Similarly for assassination I can't find a lightning strike over 7.5% and most in the 7% range.


This is generally where I find my meta falling with both the mastery and the haste build.
OP here, faction/server transferred. Thanks for the data guys.
Its the fact that raw bust isn't that interesting for raiding much weaker target swapping, low target aoe and positional requirements are much bigger problems.


Sub target swapping would be on par with combat and assassination wouldn't it? AoE is the weakest of all 3 specs - perhaps buff Crimson Tempest just for sub? Its the positional requirements which are the main impediment. They are just terrible, and as I've said need to go.
Sub target swapping would be on par with combat and assassination wouldn't it? AoE is the weakest of all 3 specs - perhaps buff Crimson Tempest just for sub? Its the positional requirements which are the main impediment. They are just terrible, and as I've said need to go.


they don't need to go. blizzard just needs to design encounters better.
True, there are some fights that cause a rage like you've never seen from a woman, from my feral friend...lol
blizzard just needs to design encounters better.

Its just that Blizzard then needs to put considerable extra effort into designing encounters solely for the sake of two specs, and needs to cut back on what could be interesting mechanics. Ultraxion was a great fight - but to properly make it work for sub/ferals would have required considerable extra programming (which I think Blizzard tried but was unable to get working properly).

And its not just pve. I know plenty here swear up and down that the positional requirements of backstab and shadowdance ambush are fun and rewarding in pvp, but I'm sure there's plenty more who just find them annoying.
Ultraxion was a great fight - but to properly make it work for sub/ferals would have required considerable extra programming (which I think Blizzard tried but was unable to get working properly).


you mean like on chimaeron? which worked fine?

And its not just pve. I know plenty here swear up and down that the positional requirements of backstab and shadowdance ambush are fun and rewarding in pvp, but I'm sure there's plenty more who just find them annoying.


I used to play sub at 500 ms, which is pretty suboptimal. Latency is forgiving enough to let you get it off in most cases, and the slows helped a ton. I think the only problem was like kitties running away wtoo quickly with some kind of small/misaligned hitbox.
05/03/2013 08:52 PMPosted by Sichel
I used to play sub at 500 ms, which is pretty suboptimal.
Bah dum tsh!
Sub target swapping would be on par with combat and assassination wouldn't it? AoE is the weakest of all 3 specs - perhaps buff Crimson Tempest just for sub? Its the positional requirements which are the main impediment. They are just terrible, and as I've said need to go.

On target swapping- not really. I put this better a couple weeks ago in another thread but the basic idea is combat only suffers the loss of .2 cps and the difference in damage between SS and RvS (basically negligible) and if a combat rogue goes into a swap at zero energy there is no penalty for having to wait on RvS. Assassination still has its energy gain from rupture ticking on the off target or an energy refund from target death which can serve as a resource buffer while it reramps on a new target. Sub however needs considerable resources to get a bleed up on the target ASAP without a buffer, if the target swap is to a close target you can make it work with CT but otherwise sub is forced to hold cds (redirect, mfd) to start its rotation.

As for AoE, the problem isn't AoE in general its small target AoE. Things like multidotting or BF sub just lacks and that small target AoE makes up the majority of aoe in most encounters.
While this buff will help people still aren't going to play sub. Damage isn't the reason sub isn't played right now. It's the fact that there is no reason to play the spec. Mut and combat both have a handful of reasons to play each spec (aoe, execute, cleave, burst, etc.) while sub literally doesn't have one anymore. The only thing sub is good for is once a minute burst and combat already does that better. Last xpac you could play it for the self healing / less damage taken but those are both gone now. I would love a reason to be able to play sub again but the only one I have right now is to give my wrist a break from the awfulness that is combats .5 second gcd spamming.
While this buff will help people still aren't going to play sub. Damage isn't the reason sub isn't played right now. It's the fact that there is no reason to play the spec. Mut and combat both have a handful of reasons to play each spec (aoe, execute, cleave, burst, etc.) while sub literally doesn't have one anymore. The only thing sub is good for is once a minute burst and combat already does that better. Last xpac you could play it for the self healing / less damage taken but those are both gone now. I would love a reason to be able to play sub again but the only one I have right now is to give my wrist a break from the awfulness that is combats .5 second gcd spamming.


What about for fun? :)
05/03/2013 11:08 PMPosted by Snail
While this buff will help people still aren't going to play sub. Damage isn't the reason sub isn't played right now. It's the fact that there is no reason to play the spec. Mut and combat both have a handful of reasons to play each spec (aoe, execute, cleave, burst, etc.) while sub literally doesn't have one anymore. The only thing sub is good for is once a minute burst and combat already does that better. Last xpac you could play it for the self healing / less damage taken but those are both gone now. I would love a reason to be able to play sub again but the only one I have right now is to give my wrist a break from the awfulness that is combats .5 second gcd spamming.


What about for fun? :)


I think last xpac's rotation was more fun :(

I think last xpac's rotation was more fun :(


How so? We still juggle the same amount of finishers, we just don't as much self healing out of it.

Cata:

- Rupture once (After stealth)

- Eviscerate to maintain rupture
- Slice and Dice
- Recuperate (For energy)

Mop:

- Eviscerate
- Slice and Dice (+ energy)
- Rupture
I really like the self healing and not dropping rupture was a lot more important. Also during DS always being able to spam during dance felt nice compared to hit ambush about three times then have no energy.
I really like the self healing and not dropping rupture was a lot more important. Also during DS always being able to spam during dance felt nice compared to hit ambush about three times then have no energy.


I miss the 70% crit backstabs/100% crit ambushes. :(

Forgot about not letting rupture drop, that was a huge deal back then lol. Now the Master of Subtlety buff is just like "meh, whatever." :(
Sub does good AoE, sanguinary vein + crimson tempest it's a 20% damage modifier on all the targets. Gear for mastery and crimson tempest does a lot more damage. it seems i'm always doing top AoE damage when i raid sub. When i raid assination i'm just trying to apply rupture to something so i can get some energy, and the only time it does good AoE damage is when the targets live long enough for deadly poison and ruptures to kick in.

I haven't done any hard core AoE testing, but my experience tells me sub does better AoE damage, and assassination can only do well when the targets have a long life span.

-Combat is king of 3-5 targets.
-Sub requires less ramp up time, best at cleaning up targets with low HP or short life span.
-Assassination needs two ruptures, and deadly poison damage ramp up time, king of 1-2 targets, needs targets with a long life span.


As for AoE, the problem isn't AoE in general its small target AoE. Things like multidotting or BF sub just lacks and that small target AoE makes up the majority of aoe in most encounters.


Your right, assassination is best for two targets because of venemous wounds energy regeneration.

However, Crimson tempest does more damage then eviscerate on 2 targets. You can multi dot rupture as sub as well. You obviuosly aren't going to get the increased regeneration venemous wounds provides, but subs mastery stat makes multidotting worth while.
Cata:

- Rupture once (After stealth)

- Eviscerate to maintain rupture
- Slice and Dice
- Recuperate (For energy)

Mop:

- Eviscerate
- Slice and Dice (+ energy)
- Rupture


You're forgetting that cata had much shorter timers to work with, making the margin of error much smaller. You didn't glyph rupture for the extra time and I don't believe I personally glyphed slice and dice, so I had 16 second rupture and 20 second slice and dice timers to work with (as well as the 30 second recup timer.)

Now they're 24 and 36 seconds, and letting rupture fall off (if you somehow manage that) just means you lose a couple ticks of rupture, rather than going back to put it back up while juggling everything else, or just nixxing it entirely for that fight.
Cata:

- Rupture once (After stealth)

- Eviscerate to maintain rupture
- Slice and Dice
- Recuperate (For energy)

Mop:

- Eviscerate
- Slice and Dice (+ energy)
- Rupture


You're forgetting that cata had much shorter timers to work with, making the margin of error much smaller. You didn't glyph rupture for the extra time and I don't believe I personally glyphed slice and dice, so I had 16 second rupture and 20 second slice and dice timers to work with (as well as the 30 second recup timer.)

Now they're 24 and 36 seconds, and letting rupture fall off (if you somehow manage that) just means you lose a couple ticks of rupture, rather than going back to put it back up while juggling everything else, or just nixxing it entirely for that fight.


Ah yeah, you're right. Imo eviscerate should still refresh rupture, just to get its rotation complexity down to the other specs. The real challenge and reward for me is managing shadow dance and FW's uptime.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum