So I've been pvping as ret

I never thought I would say this, because I hate it when people say this game is hard. But pvping on my Ret is a lot more difficult than this DK or my War.

I know a lot of it's gear, I only have 2 tyr pieces on him with the malev weapon. The gear gap in pvp is enough to make me rage quit a lot. Like it's not even close, I shouldn't even call it a gap. It's more like a chasm.

That being said, Keeping up inquisition is a pain in pvp, pve it's easy to monitor. In pvp I feel like I put it up, then I'm either kiting, healing or running to my target and I waste so much time only to have the opportunity to finally burst and I have to refresh it. On my DK setting up and refreshing diseases is idiot proof.

I have so much more to worry about, so much more to watch and press.

I feel 10 times more squish, and I used to !@#$% about DK defense. Blood presence + conversion is a godsend compared to what I'm dealing with right now and all I have to do is push it, generate RP and im g2g. Bubble being 5 minutes, I just feel very vulnerable outside of it. The healign I can do to myself doesn't seem to offset the massive amounts of damage I often take.

I get where they are going with the Spec, dps with supporting teammates. We offer great additional support for them, but not much for ourselves and we really shine in both dps and support when we AREN'T the kill target...which I have found out, is a lot.

The burst is nice, but I guess im just spoiled on my DK to have Desecration, Lichborne, IBF, and trinket to get out of various CC's. So easy to get CC'd.

Ret was my very first char in vanilla, bad experiences ensued with the spec/class. Since then I have always leaned towards more better off pvp classes. I decided to dust my ret off and go back to playing the class I truly enjoy, trying to forgo my competitive side. Really my competitive pvp days ended in Wrath, and I don't have the friends to try to go far anymore.

Like I said, I'm sure much of it is gear. And I still have to get used to the playstyle, But my hat goes off to all of you. And I have a new found respect for you all.
These are all great points that I agree with. Personally, I would like to see some system re-tuning where Ret is rewarded for playing its intended role as support. Instead of remaking Inquisition, why not keep the current functionality, but if (for example) you're throwing out Flash Heals, why not let every few Flash Heals add 5 sec to Inq. That's probably not the best example, but you get my point -- play the spec as intended, and you're rewarded with ways to DPS.
05/02/2013 08:37 PMPosted by Cezar
I never thought I would say this, because I hate it when people say this game is hard. But pvping on my Ret is a lot more difficult than this DK or my War.

You think that's a shocker, try going from a rogue to a ret.. The difference in control over a fight, shocking.

Also, notice how people seem to just target you right away when you are speced retribution.. Kinda sucks don't it.

You don't have to tell me, at a different points in the game I mained a Rogue and Hunter. It's literally like night and day. I can only imagine how it is now, with the amount of burst both classes have plus their utility.

I feel like the class that's meant to support others while dps'ing has a hard time helping itself. Paladins in general seem to be balanced around very long cooldowns, in the defense category as far as self utility goes. I also have one trinket to get out of any form of cc, without using bubble or in a few occasions BoP, but both cause forbearance. I don't know, I don't have the answer here, but Ret's definitively need some love in the survival category with the evolution the game has gone with other classes having some pretty amazing self healing/defense.

These are all great points that I agree with. Personally, I would like to see some system re-tuning where Ret is rewarded for playing its intended role as support. Instead of remaking Inquisition, why not keep the current functionality, but if (for example) you're throwing out Flash Heals, why not let every few Flash Heals add 5 sec to Inq. That's probably not the best example, but you get my point -- play the spec as intended, and you're rewarded with ways to DPS.

I agree that something should be done. They have always tried to do this, but just never seem to get it right. Right now selfless healer and the WoG glyph for example are way's they are trying to do this...and it's not so bad. I'm not saying ret paladins need to be un killable, but it goes back to the aforementioned problem, to help others more often and more effectively, IMO rets need more reliable ways to get out of CC, reduce damage, better defensive cooldowns.

Hybrids have always gotten the shaft when it comes to pvp/dps balance for nearly the whole of the game, with few exceptions.
Also, I see a lot of harsh words (ha) against people who dislike Inquisition uptime. Let me just say that for PvE, I like it, it's something to manage and it does seem to flow well.

However I do find it annoying and clunky in pvp, like I said in my first post I have to build up 3 first to even apply it, and often times by the time I have it on it's either being wasted by me having to run to my target or having to kite.

It would be nice to see some sort of pvp only mechanic where, as you suggested, inquisition can either get refreshed or add additional time to current duration. So instead of using that 3 WoG to refresh Inquisition, we use it on someone to heal, and like you mentioned are rewarded with a refresh or addition.

Diseases flow so well on a DK because not only are they baked into your damaging abilities, but they also offer additional utility to use them and DK's have options to instantly apply them. I mean it is seriously pretty idiot proof for them, super convenient and very pvp friendly.

I'm just throwing out thoughts now, but it would be nice to see inquisition be more important than just damage in pvp. Maybe baking in some %reduction in cc effects, or maybe an additional healing %, damage reduction, haste etc... Ret's do need more rewards for playing the spec as a support dps, and perhaps more survivability along with damage is a good way to do that.
I find ret to be so much fun. Despite the fact that my paladin has around 350k hp, and is terribly undergeared, I was doing 2's and managing to get great utility with our insane offheals, sac, freedom, and bubble. Really if you think getting focused is your issue, hop into seal of insight and judgement kite and pillar hump.
Ret is a much harder class to play then something like my bm hunter here, but try playing with an elemental shaman or balance druid, the synergy between ret and those classes is amazing and you'll see good results in arena.

Ret's biggest defence is kiting and pillar hugging, so use it well. Our good ranged capability makes kiting effective. Make sure you make the most of your seals. Dont think you have to sit in seal of truth or justice.

Get some helpful addons like healbot for healing allies easily, and tossing out hands without having to macro every new partner in. Make sure you have a good rotation and are keeping inquistion up. Ret is cc'd easily but remember your BOP can remove some phycial cc, but be cautious whether you should use it as a trinket or not.

Cleanse often and judge hard friend.
05/02/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Brutourian
I see a lot of harsh words (ha)

+10 to cool points
To the OP, this is quite a good post to discuss on the paladin forums - bravo. This acknowledges the two issues I have the desire to talk about.
First of all, yes, I agree that ret pallies in rated battle grounds (and battle grounds alike) are sitting ducks. They indeed are quite weak against CC. I think emancipate is an incredible move, and I used to think it's overpowered. But not so much against multiple enemies, as it can only break one form of cc and costs 15% of the total mana pool. I don't know what can be done about that, but I agree that other defensive cooldowns might just be a little too long.
I also agree that there are a lot of harsh words about Inquisition. As the OP stated before, for many players including myself, I think Inquisition is a fantastic necessity in PvE - it makes the rotation much more interesting. I LOVE the Ret pally PvE rotation.
Contrary to PvE, Inquisition is a major hassle in a PvP setting. Not only does a PvP fight last long enough to have to refresh it more than once, but it requires 3 Holy Power to get sufficient effects from it. It is difficult to separate the two to satisfy our desires in PvP along with PvE.

Could you all share your opinions with me about my ideas? (I realize these ideas will never be implemented so this may be meaningless, but for the sake of entertainment and discussion, I love to talk about these things anyway)
- To change inquisition in PvP, what if a two/four set bonus could include a feature to do something along the lines of, "Abilities that generate holy power now increase the duration of Inquisition by five seconds."
Hell, maybe even do this in PvE. Maybe that's too easy, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys. Because some ideas have been to make Inquisition a passive talent. But that takes the fun out of it, in my opinion. But let's think about this.. Death Knights have abilities to increase the duration... And they have Outbreak and damage dealing abilities such as Scourge Strike to apply diseases and certain abilities to increase the duration (I don't have a DK, but is this only in Unholy spec?). Although less substantial, Warriors maintain bleed effects through their damage dealing abilities as well.
The ret pally can buy a glyph to increase inquisition uptime by 100%, but the damage buff is outrageously hindered to do so. So I don't find this a viable option. I also forgot to mention that Inquisition doesn't even deal damage! It would maybe be acceptable if it did, but wow... Having to spend holy power (aka rage and runes for warriors, who get to deal damage with their power immediately) to gain a practically necessary buff is pretty weak.

I don't know. It's enough as it is that they're squishy relative to DK's and Warriors - causing holy power to be used for word of glory a lot as well. So I think some changes would be a smart move on Blizzard's part.

What do you all think?
Yea ret..
Put it this way, I'm a long time ret (only just rerolled holy) and was competitive in most RATED play I did. Nothing special but 1700-2k be it rbgs/2s/3s ect.
Within 2 weeks of playing my dk, I have already surpassed my rets achievements.
Does that make me a bad ret? Maybe.
Ret is not as easy as everyone thinks to play well and I feel ret (although alot smoother) is in a weird place right now..
We are classified as a melee dps.
Yet we are told we are a melee hybrid dps support class.
EXCEPT our current play style (when not bursting) mainly consists or pillar hugging, kiting, healing and using ranged attacks which sure sounds a hell of a lot like a CASTER dps (or hybrid caster).
The only classes we can seem to beat are other hybrids like ele/enhance or boomies.

We lack a unique ability to be viable in rbgs (smoke bomb, solar beam/vortex, gorefiend's grasp, rig of frost, ect, ect.) and until we get that, anything we can do a holy paladin can do 10x better.

For arena, we'll I've seen improvements.
We sucked in cata and we only became semi viable when running around in majority heroic PVE gear playing triple dps or ret/dk/disc.
What we need is a fear break/immunity ability or a stun break/immunity.
Perhaps if divine protecting also broke cc and/or aura mastery (devotion aura) also made us fear/stun immune as will as silence immune for x amount of seconds.

And/or a passive ability (like a class 'racial') that decreases the durations of stuns and fears.

Because ret doesn't have these abilities, outside of bubble(5min cd, can be dispelled/shattered, 2min debuff forbearance and 50% damage decrease with active) and trinket, (2min cd that every class has), we are probably the easiest class to control.

Being a melee hybrid,
A disarm or snare obliterates our ability to put out affective dps.
Also being a hybrid means that interrupts and silences also cripple our ability to self heal or heal others.
AND not having abilities to break or shorten other forms of cc, we tend to sit in full stun/fear durations rendering our awesome burst damage or healing capabilities useless.

We need something extra or a reworking or abilities or it'll be another season/patch of being below par.
I think the biggest problem for us is that our special stuff is too situational and too infrequent to really be a huge difference maker on its own. While we're playing a game where we have priests fearbombing every 25 seconds, and DKs deathgripping every 30 seconds or whatever, our signature abilities are still on 2 minute and 5 minute cooldowns, and in many cases are considered less desireable. I'd love to see us as a great 'anti-control' class, focused on countering ccs and negative effects, and give our special abilities more oomph and frequent use.
Throwing some various ideas out there...

-Ret needs increased passive DR on fears, or something like nimble brew... We're to vulnerable to them.

-We need defensives on lower cd's. DS is overpowered and underpowered at the same time. Our major defensive on a 5 min cd that applies forbearance for 1 min, shouldn't be able to be dispelled. If it is dispelled, that should at least cut forbearance in half. Glyph for DS: allowing it on a 2 to 3 min cd... Take 50% damage for 8-10 seconds, undispellable, does not nerf damage (or at the most 10% damage nerf) and allows all other current benifits of ds (immunity to cc/interrupts) and possibly increases healing on the ret for x% while active. (Can cast this ability while stunned/silenced). Taken off the global cd?

-I think Divine Protection could be reworked to reduce all damage taken by 30% with a better glyphed option that allows for a ret healing or mana boost (recieve 20,000 mana /sec while active) buff while it is active. You can still get interrupted/silenced while this is active, but if your team can peel for you, then you can hard cast fol's while this is active, since right now we get 2 and then oom. (Can cast this ability while stunned/silenced). Taken off the global cd.

-Cata shield would be great to have back and would do a lot for rets by itself...

-Also, being that we don't have crazy op gap closers like other classes.. I don't think freedom should necessarily be dispellable. That would be a great improvement to ret.

- Inquisition should either be granted a bonus ten seconds for 3 hp spent on refresh, or allow a 5 second extension for every TV or WOG when you spend holy power on those abilities. Taken off the global cd.

- Divine Storm applies full (5) stacks of Censure to all targets it hits. Give ret some cleave love. Right now this ability sucks in pvp... has no use unless you're lucky enough to hit a rogue with it once a year.

A lot of ideas thrown out here.. not suggesting all of them together.

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