Dungeons vs Scenarios Debate

General Discussion
So I've been reading around the forums lately and have found a bunch of posts about heroic scenario's vs heroic dungeons and why blizzard should implement one over the other (or in heroic scenario's case. Congratulating them)

Now, from my perspective from what I've been reading I see 2 things.

1) People are use to the fact that in every other expansion to date Blizzard has implemented a new dungeon/heroic dungeon into the fold close to the end of each expansion with it generally being gear leading into the final tier.

and

2) A very small % of the current US-WoW subscribers actually enjoy doing scenario's more then once and would like to see more come out and be more trivial and have an extra chance of loot.

Now these are 2 very different sides of things and well to be honest I look at what MOP (it was brought in at the end of Cata) has brought to people that want to raid and be able to get gear for it has done.
Since LFR has come out everyone has to gear up through the current heroics, get 460ilvl and move into LFR slowly progressing through the ilvl requirements to reach each different LFR instance. Something in which until the end of cata (Dragon Soul to be specific) never existed before.

So the forums all read and from what I've people are saying. We want need heroics and we want them to give us new purples and help us getting into current raiding tier! W

Well guys I have 1 question for you, would you be willing to lose LFR so that you could have new heroic dungeons (which personally I would much prefer). Or would you prefer to have LFR and have the chance with 24 other people with you to get loot and slowly optimize your way into a point where you can get gear that is only as a general statistic only 20ilvl's LOWER then what current normal tier is.

Just my 2 cents!
Strikestorm
bump, i really want peoples insight into this!
Scenarios are okay. I prefer dungeons.

Scenarios give you a chance at loot at the end.

Dungeons you will see something drop off of each boss.
Scenarios don't have guaranteed drops. With dungeons you know exactly what drops. I hate scenarios even though you don't have to roll against others. I've only gotten crappy blues from them.

There should be new heroic dungeons at least every ~6months dropping higher ilevel than the previous heroics. This way new people and alts can get caught up quicker. I don't know why they scratched that
Well guys I have 1 question for you, would you be willing to lose LFR so that you could have new heroic dungeons (which personally I would much prefer). Or would you prefer to have LFR and have the chance with 24 other people with you to get loot and slowly optimize your way into a point where you can get gear that is only as a general statistic only 20ilvl's LOWER then what current normal tier is.

That's kind of a loaded question, lol.

I prefer to do LFR to progress. The progression of the story is in raids, not dungeons, and that's what I'm interested in. The only reason I ever returned to heroics over and over during Wrath and Cataclysm was because I needed the rep. Even with the greater number of 5-mans in these two expansions, they still get boring quick when you're there for the 17th time grinding rep.

Also want to point out that part of the problem with the late-expansion 5-mans is that in both cases, they allowed you to gear PAST raid tiers. Blizzard didn't like that 5-man content was allowing you to skip raid tiers (which I agree isn't right).

I also really like scenarios. They feel like really epic group quests and I think that's pretty great.
05/09/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Strikestorm
Well guys I have 1 question for you, would you be willing to lose LFR so that you could have new heroic dungeons (which personally I would much prefer).


Yes, yes I would. I am biased, however, as I don't find LFR to be a particularly enjoyable experience for numerous reasons that range from the players you find there to how unrewarding it is to spend several hours working through it just to wind up with 100g per wing (20x3+40 from queuing). I could grind creeps for as long as most LFRs take, and make triple that off of the vendor trash alone.

05/09/2013 09:31 AMPosted by Hippeaux
Blizzard didn't like that 5-man content was allowing you to skip raid tiers


I honestly don't know why they considered this a problem. It's not like the people who were able to kill normal Madness the week it unlocked did so because HoT dungeons dropping normal T12 gear imbued them with magical boss killing powers.
I think I would like to see the heroic scenarios before I decide how I feel about the change of focus.
Haha I feel I'm biased, but I absolutely would be willing to lose LFR for more heroics (and scenarios)!

I enjoy the small group content in this game a lot. I don't do scenarios, but that's mostly for lack of time and because it appears scenarios are more targeted at pre-heroic groups. We'll see what these 5.3 scenarios bring.

I actually liked the vanilla/TBC style of dungeon where things were challenging. You needed to use cc and tactics to win, I liked it a lot. Of course, I didn't like the 3 hour commitment for one dungeon (original Scholo) so there's that too. I know there's challenge modes, but they're a bit transparent and I don't do those either because there's so much stuff this expact that I have to do, that I don't really have time to do things I want to do. It's unfortunate.

Anyway, I think the other reason I'd be willing to give up LFR is because I raid 10-man normals, so I see most of that content anyway. I actually don't think cutting LFR is a good idea at all... it's how non-raiders see raiding content, and I think that has value.

Really, if the issue is man-power, they need to just hire more people. If it's a question of finding people... lol well, poll your community! If they're willing to pay me a comparable wage and I could somehow convince my current company (which I love) to give me a year off, I'd go work for them. I'm an educated individual and am receptive to training. Haha I doubt that either of the two scenarios would occur though :D
05/09/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I honestly don't know why they considered this a problem.

Same reason they stopped doing the late-expansion raid that barely anyone saw: raids cost a lot of time and money to create so they want as many people as possible to see them. Not just the cutting edge guilds who do it when it's released, then watch every other guild skip it in the next patch.

I find it odd from a game play standpoint. What if quests gave you good enough gear to jump straight into raiding? Doesn't it make more sense to hit the 5-mans first? I personally feel like progression makes more sense when you need to hit every step to get to the end.
05/09/2013 09:46 AMPosted by Hippeaux
Same reason they stopped doing the late-expansion raid that barely anyone saw: raids cost a lot of time and money to create so they want as many people as possible to see them.


But those old raids were getting seen. People would use them to pug for achievements, mounts, and transmog after it came out. And if the concern is that people aren't "seeing the content", then that's actually been made worse by blocking people's ability to gear up into current content without spending weeks in LFR praying for the necessary drops from a system whose chance of providing you with loot is far lower than it should be if it's the only catch up mechanism Blizzard plans on implementing.

I personally feel like progression makes more sense when you need to hit every step to get to the end.


Some of us have already done it when it was relevant though. The last thing I want to do on an alt is grind my face into months of MSV/HoF/Terrace LFR just to get geared up enough to get into ToT's LFR, which I've already been doing for months, when everyone else is running Siege of Ogrimmar. It's a bad system, not just from the standpoint of alt characters, but from the standpoint that it's serving as a massive block to getting new people/alts into current content where raids need them to fill holes caused by attrition/transfers/whathaveyous.
Well guys I have 1 question for you, would you be willing to lose LFR so that you could have new heroic dungeons (which personally I would much prefer). Or would you prefer to have LFR and have the chance with 24 other people with you to get loot and slowly optimize your way into a point where you can get gear that is only as a general statistic only 20ilvl's LOWER then what current normal tier is.


Absolutely not.

LFR is a godsend.

Scenarios however, I could do without. Get rid of those things that trivialize tanks and healers. Make more 5-mans, more dynamic raids (like Ulduar & Kara) and dump the scenario idea.

Also... Stop telling alliance lore in books and on the Horde side and start giving both sides equally compelling story in-game.
At this point I'm not really doing Scenarios or Heroics. I have never done heroics this expansion (total of 9 I think when I got drug into guild runs) While I did a large number of scenarios initially to help gear up this Char the only reason I've been running since about the end of November has been for quick valor points.

With the release of 5.2, however, I haven't even been doing scenarios for the most part. If I need extra VP I just go and kill the Isle rares for the 15VP books (made 135 VP last night in about 30-40 min of actual play time: killed 6, went and made dinner, came back and killed 3 more).
05/09/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Strikestorm
Well guys I have 1 question for you, would you be willing to lose LFR so that you could have new heroic dungeons


Not only willing, but I **want** this.
bump, i really want peoples insight into this!


The insight is Blizzard's being lazy.
The reason Blizzard gave was that dungeons require a completely new zone with zone architecture and various art work needed. Whereas scenario do not since they're nothing more than NPC phased over an existing game zone.

If the new zone is the main reason for lack of new 5 man, why not just use the same technique as scenarios but in a 5 man format. It may not be as good as having a completely new zone, but then who cares? After about 2 or 3 runs through the dungeon, "new" zone becomes "been there, done that" anyways.

The amount of effort it takes to design a scenario (which must work for any permutation of healer/dps/tank) vs. a fixed group composition (tank/healer/3dps) cannot be that dissimilar if you take the new zone issue out of the picture.
I dont think it should be a choice.

It wasnt SUPPOSED to be a choice.

Imagine if when they released theramore if they had said OH BTW THIS IS THE ONLY SMALL GROUP CONTENT WE'RE GONNA MAKE NOW.
Call me old school but I like the holy trinity, I like 5 mans over scenarios. I think scenarios are fine if you want something fast and easy that dont require a team comp basically. But I think 5 mans should not be got rid of because there are many people that prefer the challenge of a new 5 man heroic over a 3 man
05/09/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Fallanaa
Well guys I have 1 question for you, would you be willing to lose LFR so that you could have new heroic dungeons (which personally I would much prefer). Or would you prefer to have LFR and have the chance with 24 other people with you to get loot and slowly optimize your way into a point where you can get gear that is only as a general statistic only 20ilvl's LOWER then what current normal tier is.


Absolutely not.

LFR is a godsend.

Scenarios however, I could do without. Get rid of those things that trivialize tanks and healers. Make more 5-mans, more dynamic raids (like Ulduar & Kara) and dump the scenario idea.

Also... Stop telling alliance lore in books and on the Horde side and start giving both sides equally compelling story in-game.


I do agree to an extent, I'm not a big fan of LFR...30-60 minutes in a raid that generally takes during progression a whole week to complete in normal and doing the heroic versions is alot different.

Can anybody remember the days of trial of the crusader, ulduar before ICC came out? People would be on alts during the weekend and you would see pugs for these in trade left right and centre! Seeing the content during the current xpac wasn't hard. Yes, some people did miss out on it during current patch but it was easy enough then to gear up with alts and friends to move into these. We didnt have the issues yet for ilvl and experience linking. We learned off the fly. (although most people had done it) and if you hadn't done it yet people would tell you how to do it.

These days you'll see trade on a high pop realm spamming for more people to join a TOT run looking for experience having X amount of ilvl. (yes LFR does do this for us).

I'm going on a tangent here but I honestly just miss the days of being a holy priest and actually having to heal, or being a dps and having to keep an eye on my sheep target to make sure it hasn't broken out of it's CC abilities.

I would rather see more heroics (even if they only gave 476 gear max) just to have something trivial. because to be honest LFR doesn't test my healing capabilities at the moment. It's more of I'm relying on 24 other people to learn the zerg strat and execute it properly and then complete the boss.
Scenarios should only be used for story telling purposes, honestly.

By story telling, I mean the event that ends or phases a zone into its current status. Take the Isle of Thunder, you had to do the solo scenarios to advance into the Isle. Why can't this be incorparated into other places, like Ashenvale, or Gilneas. I assume even the Barrens won't be phased for people until they do a scenario to start the battles there.

I don't need to help a Pandaren brew some beer using lightning or defend a village while a Pandaren brews a beer, or use a brew that helped a Pandaren brew to save a village, or even go grab beer to defeat hozen trying to steal it. I want actual, meaningful stories with scenarios.

5mans should be used to get gear, defeat some baddies, get some rep, earn some achievements and then move on.
I dont think it should be a choice.

It wasnt SUPPOSED to be a choice.

Imagine if when they released theramore if they had said OH BTW THIS IS THE ONLY SMALL GROUP CONTENT WE'RE GONNA MAKE NOW.

This particularly irritates me.
I like group content that everyone plays a role in. There is something for everyone to do, and no one really is left without something to manage or keep track of. Sure, there are exceptions, and outgearing content sort of does away with this, but doing away with the system entirely puts people in the mindset that that will become the norm.
It's destructive to have none group (IE, Holy Trinity based) content without there being an alternative to it that the tanks and healers can excel at if three of them were thrown into one.

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