LF Feedback – Pet Abilities Adjustments

Pet Battles
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Currently there are at least one or two pets that are "counter pets" to each family. They aren't automatic "win" pets, nor are they outstandingly overpowered/strong.

I would hope that this is kept in mind if any changes to strong/weak attacks are made.


Pretty much this. Discovering the "double counter" to a given pet (or tamer's pets) is a really fun part of fiddling with Pet Battles.

It's THE fun part of it for me! As someone who only PvE with my battle pets this is the reason why I enjoy pet battles.
Give the mechanical Battle-Pet his own elemental Battle-Pet... then it will be even
05/20/2013 10:02 PMPosted by Hearus
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it ends up being a little bit odd to have Mechanical > Magic > Aquatic > Mechanical not ever being part of the rest of the defensive counter list.

I seriously don't get the point of the changes. The changes proposed or why it was even thought of. Anyone have any insight into this?

I'm guessing it goes hand in hand with the full revamp of certain families, like when Crithto posted here about changing some of the racial abilities.

To address Crithto's post:

The thing I've noticed, though, is that it's not the fault of the cycle of weaknesses that makes a pet not worth playing with. People are saying mechs are weak right now but that's mainly because of the absolute proliferation of elemental pets. They are EVERYWHERE. Two of the pet related achievements give you elemental pets. And unlike critters that are also everywhere, they have good movesets and stat builds.

I preferred elementals being a hard counter to mechs specifically when clockwork gnomes and FFFs were all over the place. To get people to start using more mechanical pets, you need to start making more appealing mechanical pets. The pet battle system is one of checks and balances, and unfortunately at certain points some pets come out to be totally overpowered or broken. This is the point where hard counters become necessary. In a perfect world where bugs didn't exist, it wouldn't be as necessary.

In terms of these changes, the second option is much more preferable. It helps a bit with undead popularity and makes aquatics slightly more appealing...I guess. And this without rustling the balance of the rest of the strengths/weaknesses.
In terms of changes, I would GREATLY prefer the second change to the first, as it A) limits the number of hard counters to a few pets, that are both easily obtained but at the same time not capturable in the wild, and it prevents any NEW pet-type from becoming un-hard counterable. As an extra change, PLEASE add in an Undead pet type with a Humanoid type damage move, so that Dragonkin pet types are hard-counterable as well, instead of being the only one that isnt. (Beasts are also ALMOST in the un-hard-counterable spot, given that the only hard counter they have is the Dragon Kite, which is a very rare TCG item, and thus few pet-battlers have one. Make the Balloons a flying type pet with a mechanical move please?)

^^^^ This sounds very good to me. I agree with most of what Okakeri says here. Thx Oka for ,(i feel) speaking for a lot of us Tamers. Very nicely put.
I like the idea of changing Elemental and Mech, since it's the only place with a "double counter" built in.

But I'm more looking forward to racial changes you guys spoke about. And I'm not sure, maybe changes to basic generic skills like "Survival" would help, just too many pets have exact same move sets, and most of them are not very good in todays meta.

Generic bird is very weak these days.
Generic rat, mouse, roach, squirrel, otter, cricket, moth, frog, snake... all are too weak and are missing in pvp completely.
I like the first set, it feels more in touch with lore, although I think it'll cause flying pets to completely vanish from pvp.

I'm sure they could both work, but I think the biggest problem right now is that there are a lot of pets who seem very weak and hence entire families are not played. For example aquatic, critter, and flying (excluding raven) are almost non existant in PVP. So often people, I know at least I do, pick pets which will not likely be countered.

Undead is an easy choice today, simply because critters are very rare, and so are aquatic pets. I can run 3 undead and 9 out of 10 times I will not be countered. Same goes for elementals, critters and aquatics are rare.

So I really think that once a lot of these "generic" pets are brought up and are strong enough to pvp there won't be such family exclusion and meta game will be a lot more meta. There won't be a need to rework weak / strong attack.
05/21/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Alona
People are saying mechs are weak right now but that's mainly because of the absolute proliferation of elemental pets.

Not just elemental pets, but pets w/ elemental moves (such as the ever-popular KLR, Imps, and the absolutely HUGE number of pets w/ an elemental DoT).
Also Crithro thanks for all the interaction on the forum. Another question for you, do you guys have any plans to address Lil KT? Because if you end up using his ice moves, you are stuck on cooldown for 3 turns with nothing but casting a dot. Maybe some of his skills could swap positions lik D&D with Frost Nova?
The second set definitely buffs Elemental and Mechanical pets - Undead are generally a lot better than Aquatics in the current level 25 PvP metagame, although nerfing Deep Freeze and buffing the Critter passive should help out in the current patch.

If you really want to buff Mechs though, please take a look through their family first. They often have pretty one-dimensional movelists, more so than the other families. Fix that and making them more viable will be a good, rather than a bad thing for the game.
Ok, I guess I just do it differently, I use the ones I like and if they loose I try other ones. My thought is that if you change what is best then I will change what I attack with. I did almost every fight to Pandaria with my corehound and onxia plus whatever I felt like throwing in.

I can see by the posts some of you guys really take this to another level! good luck
I like to see battlegrounds for Pet fights like they with pvp battlegrounds but using your Battle pets.
Elementals and Mechanical pets are both extremely popular. I think elemental pets keep mechanical pets in check and is fine as it is. These proposed changes will only make mechanical pets more popular and abused.

But let's look at the changes 1 by 1. "Mechanicals nerfed to critters instead of elementals/elementals nerfed to dragonkin instead of critters/flying nerfed to elemental instead of dragonkin."

-Mechanicals will be buffed because critter pets are severely under used anyway and these changes don't really change things for critters.
-Elementals are weakened a bit because dragonkin are more popular than critters.
-Flying pets (including dragonkin) benefit from this trade and a lot of dragonkins have flying attacks anyway so they'll be killing each other faster.

Ultimately, Dragonkin and Mechanical pets will become a lot more powerful. Elementals/elemental abilities will be getting hurt in this exchange. Their weakness in attack was to unpopular and underpowered critters. Now it will be dragonkins which are moderately popular. In sum, I think the change creates more problems than it solves. On a side note, it will help with the imbalance of penguin/Kun Lai Runt teams which use elemental abilities to really decimate teams.

The second set of changes was: Undeads nerfed to Elementals (instead of Aquatic) Mechanical abilities would deal less damage versus Aquatic (instead of Elemental)

This change really helps out both elementals/elemental and mechanicals to all other teams. Aquatics are another underpowered/underused set of pets. Now mechanicals hold their own slightly more than before against elementals and now elementals get an upper hand over extremely popular undead pets.

Honestly, the balance issue right now is with humans/undeads/mechanicals being too powerful. The evidence is in how much they are used. The self heal and the res passive abilities will always make these pets slightly more popular as they take a lot more to kill than other pets. The proposed changes are actually benefitting mechanicals when they are one of the classes that actually need to be put more in line with others. So, in the end, I think both of these changes are the wrong way to go.

Like I stated in the beginning, elementals being doubly powerful against mechanicals is fine as mechanicals are a bit overpopulated in the PVP pet battles anyway. And not because they cool, it's because they are good. Elementals are good, but not great since the nerf to their abilities, but they are made better because they are strong against mechanicals.
While on the subject, I think critters being doubly powerful against undeads would be a good change. Right now, humans being weak to critters is sort of mythical as the human passive more than makes up for this "weakness" in attack. Humans need something that can hit them hard to be weak to.

So here is a change that improves the elemental/mechanical relationship but that also helps critters. It should help dragonkin too as now dragonkin are a much better matchup against humans.

-Undead would be nerfed to damaging critters (instead of dragonkin).
-Humans get nerfed to damaging dragonkin (instead of critters).
-Humans (instead of elementals) get strong attacks against mechanicals (they are their creators btw)
-Elementals (instead of humans) get strong attacks against Dragonkin.

Critter abilities match up much better to undeads than humans anyway as both humans and critters have a lot of dodge/burrowing mechanics. Now critters will be the go-to pets against popular undeads and become more popular. Their avoidance mechanics are great against the strong single attack abilities of undeads. A rise in popularity of the vast amounts critters? Yes please.

I think the changes to dragonkin/mechanical/elementals are lateral.

The bottom line is humans need to be weak to something that hits them hard to offset their passive healing ability. Critters need to become more popular in use. Doubling up their power to a popular type of pet will only help them.

All in all, I think with those changes critters will get used more, humans, mechanicals, and undead less.

A problem might be that there continues to be this isolation in relation between aquatic/magic/flying and humans/undead/mechanicals for the most part. That might be another source of change to look at.
Elementals no longer hard counter mechs.
Dragons no longer hard counter flying.


Elementals no longer hard counter mechs.
Aquatics no longer hard counter undead.

Not sure why you guys suddenly don't like certain hard counters?

To answer the question, I think the first option would do less damage to the pvp meta game than the second. Undead don't need any kind of buff, and aquatics don't need any kind of nerf.

On the other hand, doing tamers 2v3 would be a lot tougher, simply because of the volume of flying pets. This would be a pretty stiff nerf to the EPD, and make the thundering spirit even more difficult.

I don't like either option. Practically every pvp team has a weather effect, and there's only two ways to counter that--have your own weather or have an elemental. Nerfing elementals vs. mechs won't change that. The only way to change that is to reduce the need for elementals, ie: nerf their racial. So I guess now we have more insight as to why you want to change that.

If you get the elemental racial right, you won't need to do anything else.
If you have to change things, I prefer the second. It sounds more logical, and makes fewer changes.

Honestly, I really don't like such fundamental aspects of pet families changing though. If you do have to do this, please get everything done all at once and do not iterate constantly. And if you're adding new families, add them at the same time as the disruptive family changes you want to do. At least I'd see the need a lot better if you're adding new families, and I'd sort of feel like I'm getting something cool for putting up with the changes.
I never really thought there was a problem keeping it as it is. Plus I have an index card with the strengths and weaknesses of each class on my desk and it would be annoying to make a new one.
In all fairness the second one, undead - elemental, mechanical - aquatic... is probably the best route. In most PvE battles undead pets are difficult to use, because a good half of the wild pets/trainer pets are aquatic or critters. Elemental also makes more sense, since most undead abilities are life drains. Mechanical to aquatic also keeps mechanicals in line (aquatics usually have better defenses than elementals) and it makes sense that machines do less damage to creatures native to water.

The first option didn't seem to be as sensible as the second (machines to less damage to critters: what about quake? a move designed to hit burrowed would do less damage against most things that can burrow? Not very sensible.)
The second set of changes would make the most sense. To say that crtters should take less damage from mechanical abilities makes no sense when you think of that invention called 'the mouse trap'.

Also, fixing the undead vs aquatic at the same time would be an added bonus. I'm not fond of frogs.
First set of changes makes no sense and would ruin a lot of pet teams currently. Second set is tolerable although don't really feel like anything needs to change. If anything, just bring up a few of the abilities of the pets in under-used pet families.

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