Three New Specs for Rogues

Rogue
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In my spare time, my mind can start to wander, which is a dangerous thing.

I was thinking about how the rogue could be improved. One of our biggest issues right now is the lack of diversity between our current three specs (Subtlety, Combat, Assassination).

There is a definite way to improve on it, while keeping the rogueness in it in addition to giving us more overall utility.

COMBAT

This is not the combat we know and love. This would be a new, more durable combat. It would be tailored around survivability and would give us the ability to off-tank with a degree of rogue squishiness. It is not designed to make us into warriors, but rather to let us stand in front of the action and take a blow or two. Talents may include a raid-wide Tricks of the Trade that can disperse damage over the raid group and target aggro back on to the main tank or Combat Rogue, Hardened Leather which provides the rogue a stamina buff, Shadow Shield which uses combo points to create a shield cool down that makes the rogue more resilient to damage, Insanity which forces the target to focus on the Combat Rogue for 10-15 seconds, and our favorite, Killing Spree.


RANGER

Whereas hunters use both ranged weapons and pets, the Ranger Rogue focuses more on traps and ranged attacks (like Shruiken Toss) to provide a ranged alternative to the typical melee rogue. Their abilities would focus more on CC, burst range damage, and the ability to direct aggro from target to target. Weapons would include either a crossbow or throwing knives and poisons would be distributed via traps and attack damage. Abilities include Quick Shot (ranged combo point builder), Vile Snare (a poison trap that can snare a target and cause damage), Deep Wound (ranged finisher), and Insight which increases the Ranger Rogue's hit and crit for 30 seconds. Poisons can be swapped out for flames, ice, or lightning to add different effects and abilities.

ASSASSINATION

This is the typical "rogue spec" as we know it. However, it combines the best of both the Subtlety and Assassination specs. This is a melee, close-ranged pure damage spec. Built on stuns, poisons, daggers, and close range attacks like Hemorrhage, Dispatch, and Rupture this spec takes the sneaky rogue to the next level.

These are just a few ideas, and I fully understand that I've made each class out to be extremely powerful. I truly believe that the only way to bring rogues back into the game as a unique class is to add a bit of diversity to their specs. Right now, each and every spec follows the same general rotation and has the same utility. I personally would love to play in each and every one of these specs as they each provide a unique playing experience.

Let me know what you all think.
Better than the current system, I feel. Assassination might as well be Sub (or vice versa) and I've never been able to make Combat work for me.

I was trying to think up new classes on day and came up with Bard, Ninja and Ranger. One of the Ranger specs would be Commando, which is pretty much the Combat spec you describe above. My Ranger class was basically a pet-less hunter, which is not far off your Ranger spec for rogue. (To round it out, my Ninja class had a tanking spec -- in cloth armor. It was based almost completely around damage avoidance and CC.)

So yeah, if you're going to take the best of those ideas, you pretty much have it with your list. I think going into the next patch that if they didn't completely rework the class, Blizzard at least needs to do something about the lack of identity between Sub and Asn.
I disagree with people when they say there is a lack of diversity between the two specs..... You are a rogue, your main goal is always going to be generat Combopoints and use finishers... how do people not see the diversity in specs when the main abilities are SO different.

For Assassination Mutilate has a huge energy cost but generates two combopoints, you have vendetta which is unique and nothing like any other spec AND dispatch(EXECUTE)

Combat, sinister strike is a more moderate energy cost yet generates one combopint, revealing strikes puts a special buff on your target that allows for sinister strike to generate two combopoints AND killing spree(Very unique nothing like any skill in Assassination / Sub)

Subtlety, Hemorage is a small energy cost and applies and bleed, you have backstab which has positional requirements, premeditation which allows for a better opener AND shadowdance... I do not even need to explain that one, its 100% unique.

People, we are a PURE DPS class, our spec's are not ment to feel totally different like a monk's DPS spec VS Healing Spec, I am sick of people wanting this stuff changed when not realizing its fine the way it is, and most likely the current developers would butcher us even further if trying to "make each spec feel unique" more then they already do.
05/13/2013 02:11 AMPosted by Viri
One of our biggest issue right now is the lack of diversity between our current three specs


Meh, I would say once 5.3 hits, mobility will be one of our biggest issues, and diversity in spec for a PURE class is not.
I disagree with people when they say there is a lack of diversity between the two specs..... You are a rogue, your main goal is always going to be generat Combopoints and use finishers... how do people not see the diversity in specs when the main abilities are SO different.


While the abilities within each spec are different, our role in a raid or in a group is the same for all three specs. We are close range, melee dps with moderate CC. The three specs I list above gives us the ability to try different roles within a raid and try different mechanics outside of the typical melee dps role. All of the three above described specs use combo points, cooldowns, and finishers. That doesn't change. It mainly changes our ability to try new play-styles and roles in both PvE and PvP.
One of our biggest issue right now is the lack of diversity between our current three specs (Subtlety, Combat, Assassination).


You say that...then combine two different specs. Perhaps they are indeed...different.

Combat just sucks balls, sorry to say it but subtlety and assassination are very different specs, so please don't merge them.

The only thing I really get out of this is that they need to revamp combat from a herpderpwhitedamage spec to making it an actual swashbuckler...and that we need a range spec too. With shurikens and things and stuff. Which I wholeheartedly agree with.

I disagree with people when they say there is a lack of diversity between the two specs..... You are a rogue, your main goal is always going to be generat Combopoints and use finishers... how do people not see the diversity in specs when the main abilities are SO different.


+1

If Assassination and Subtlety are 'similair'...then so is destro and affliction or frost and unholy. They use the same resources and stuff...so they must be the same right?
If Assassination and Subtlety are 'similair'...then so is destro and affliction or frost and unholy. They use the same resources and stuff...so they must be the same right?


Are you being sarcastic?
Affliction and Destro are very different. <.<
05/13/2013 02:49 AMPosted by Viri
I disagree with people when they say there is a lack of diversity between the two specs..... You are a rogue, your main goal is always going to be generat Combopoints and use finishers... how do people not see the diversity in specs when the main abilities are SO different.


While the abilities within each spec are different, our role in a raid or in a group is the same for all three specs. We are close range, melee dps with moderate CC. The three specs I list above gives us the ability to try different roles within a raid and try different mechanics outside of the typical melee dps role. All of the three above described specs use combo points, cooldowns, and finishers. That doesn't change. It mainly changes our ability to try new play-styles and roles in both PvE and PvP.


...... My post outlines the abilities and their differences..... you are the one who thinks these specs are simular.(Energy difference, weapon interaction difference, positional requirement difference.... Not to mention the drastic difference between KILLINGSPREE/VENDETTA/SHADOWDANCE.. )

You also seem to not understand there are pure classes that specialize in one thing and there are hybrid classes that do different roles..

We are close melee DPS period, nothing else. If they changed it... it would ruin everything(You simply didn't know about pure VS hybrid) Play a druid monk or shaman, they are hybrid and each spec feels different entirely, meen while rogue is SUPPOSED to feel how you describe.
You know. Speaking of Warlocks...
Gankhard, if you have time, log on the PTR and make a Warlock. You want to see spec diversity from a pure DPS class? There's your prime example.

Warlocks specialize in only one thing. Caster DPS. Yet, their three specs are very, very different. Each manages a unique resource and has a completely different rotation.
Warlocks specialize in only one thing. Caster DPS. Yet, their three specs are very, very different. Each manages a unique resource and has a completely different rotation.


not to mention almost completely different spells.
Warlocks specialize in only one thing. Caster DPS. Yet, their three specs are very, very different. Each manages a unique resource and has a completely different rotation.


Do they play different? They are all just casting spells on the target(Or instant spells) The OP is looking for a hybrid class based on their posts.

Also I have entirely different rotations for Assassination / Combat / Subtlety and feel the differences(Been playing rogue for 8 years) perhaps having to be in melee and using abilities is going to feel the same no matter WHAT the abilities are to other people???

I do see your point about warlocks spec's feeling different MORE then rogues do however. But I honestly think warlocks PLAY the same in all specs, its just the abilities being instant or casted that make people feel like they differ drastically.
05/13/2013 03:08 AMPosted by Knocrogue
There's your prime example.
Also don't forget all the other pure classes that feel the same which do help prove my point :P (Hunter / Mage / Rogue <- not sure if I can use rogue as example considering its what is up for discussion :P)
Also I have entirely different rotations for Assassination / Combat / Subtlety and feel the differences(Been playing rogue for 8 years) perhaps having to be in melee and using abilities is going to feel the same no matter WHAT the abilities are to other people???


Really? Entirely different rotations? Lets see, I'll just use sub and combat to compare.

Use one cp builder to apply a buff, then use main cp builder, apply snd, apply rupture, use evis. The only differences are the cooldowns and cp builder. But both cp builders are just damage dealers so I consider them to be the same.

Then there is assassination which has the added bonus of dispatch procs, doesnt have to refresh snd and changes evis to envenom.

Also, mage specs are also pretty different, its only rogues and hunters left being extremely similar.
05/13/2013 03:01 AMPosted by Knocrogue
If Assassination and Subtlety are 'similair'...then so is destro and affliction or frost and unholy. They use the same resources and stuff...so they must be the same right?


Are you being sarcastic?
Affliction and Destro are very different. <.<


Nah man im dead serious

Even if affliction is based off grasping/draining your corruption/agony/UA/haunt and destro is based of burning your embers for bolts/burns...THEY USE MANA.

THEREFORE SAME.

end of discussion

dueces

(I was being sarcastic lol)
05/13/2013 03:23 AMPosted by Redfang
Also I have entirely different rotations for Assassination / Combat / Subtlety and feel the differences(Been playing rogue for 8 years) perhaps having to be in melee and using abilities is going to feel the same no matter WHAT the abilities are to other people???


Really? Entirely different rotations? Lets see, I'll just use sub and combat to compare.

Use one cp builder to apply a buff, then use main cp builder, apply snd, apply rupture, use evis. The only differences are the cooldowns and cp builder. But both cp builders are just damage dealers so I consider them to be the same.


Are we talking about target dummy here??? Also you are ignoring energy differences, Sinister strike is 40 energy where as hemo is 30, I stated already that BUILDING COMBOPOINTS AND USING FINISHERS is what makes our class and changing it per spec is insane.

The skills are just damage dealers?! Hemo adds a bleed, revealing strikes increases duration of skills like kidneyshot(9 sec kidneyshot) Dispatch is an execute.... BACKSTAB POSITIONAL REQUIREMENT, not to mention THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT ENERGY COSTS LOL, mutilate is fukcing 55 energy(Hugely changes gameplay, its not just a spam ability you can energy starve yourself easily)

Bleh, talk about lame biased responses that are easily refuted.

Also, mage specs are also pretty different, its only rogues and hunters left being extremely similar.


What are mages differences?
Do they play different? They are all just casting spells on the target(Or instant spells) The OP is looking for a hybrid class based on their posts.

Also I have entirely different rotations for Assassination / Combat / Subtlety and feel the differences(Been playing rogue for 8 years) perhaps having to be in melee and using abilities is going to feel the same no matter WHAT the abilities are to other people???

I do see your point about warlocks spec's feeling different MORE then rogues do however. But I honestly think warlocks PLAY the same in all specs, its just the abilities being instant or casted that make people feel like they differ drastically.


I've played a Warlock and can assure you, they are very different. It has nothing to do with whether the abilities are instant or casted, melee or ranged. The big factor with Warlocks is managing a difference resource.
Affliction works with Soul Shards, Demonology works with Demonic Power and Destruction works with Burning Embers. Very different secondary mechanics.
All three Rogue specs work with the same secondary mechanic: Combo Points.

I can't say much about Hunters and Mages. But, if they are similar, all it proves is that they need some tuning as well.

(I was being sarcastic lol)


Well, that's good. :P
man windwalker monks are just like rogues. Chi = CP and we both use energy yo.

no I don't have anything meaningful to contribute to this thread. too tired.

All three Rogue specs work with the same secondary mechanic: Combo Points.


just gonna touch on this: I don't think a secondary resource is THE defining difference between any spec. gotta look at the whole toolkit, and out of 30+ keybinds, I change 3 between specs and the abilities I have available to me don't change all that much.

Affliction works with Soul Shards, Demonology works with Demonic Power and Destruction works with Burning Embers. Very different secondary mechanics.


Can you quickly go over how they are different? Aren't they all the same thing just different names lol, they are all gained by doing damage abilities most likely or draining life before a target dies.

Meenwhile the class mechanics are 100% the same, just managing "different resources" again, they are all the same thing with just different names and icons, they are generated almost identical MOST LIKELY.

Keep in mind I am just theory crafting for fun and am not claiming to know a ton about warlocks :D

Edit: Perhaps combopoints should be gathered or kept differently per spec? Maybe assasination could keep combopoints on the rogue so he can store them(For assassin stuffs) Combat could gain combopoints on parry and dodges or something to encourge up close tank like play(Not tank like, just cant think of better word) iono
All three Rogue specs work with the same secondary mechanic: Combo Points.


That's the main complaint I'm getting from most rogues. In reality though, a dot spec vs a spec based around find weakness vs a whitehit spec are different....they just feel the same cause they both mash buttons for points and maintain the same buff.

If they wanna add flavor to the rogue specs they should look at how we generate resources and mix our rotation up.

My votes at reworking combat.

Edit:

05/13/2013 03:39 AMPosted by Gankhard
Can you quickly go over how they are different? Aren't they all the same thing just different names lol, they are all gained by doing damage abilities most likely or draining life before a target dies.


Nah lock specs are actually pretty different. For affliction, you keep up 3-4 dots then you channel a spell to make them stronger. For demo you pool a secondary resource and then go ape!@#$ whenever you can. For destro you save up charges then use those for 'finisher moves'.

Honestly comparing locks and rogues is a good example because both classes have a dot spec/tank spec/burst spec. The main difference is that rogues are more similar in their resources and rotation. They still have fundamental differences, but at the end of the day, you're more or less doing the same thing.
05/13/2013 03:41 AMPosted by Djsinsbad
All three Rogue specs work with the same secondary mechanic: Combo Points.


That's the main complaint I'm getting from most rogues. In reality though, a dot spec vs a spec based around find weakness vs a whitehit spec are different....they just feel the same cause they both mash buttons for points and maintain the same buff.


This.

I don't know how you guys don't get the feeling I do from the 1-5 minute cooldowns like killing spree shadowdance and vendetta.....

They allow for such difference in play imo.

It seems combopoints are the thing that need to be reworked
It seems combopoints are the thing that need to be reworked


I don't necessarily agree (though I don't disagree either, so don't get confused)

I think it's utlity that needs to be reworked as well as potentially combo points (if it's warranted)

My votes at reworking combat.


Subtlety too. There's nothing subtle about it and shadow dance is the only thing that keeps it mildly interesting.
Subtlety too. There's nothing subtle about it and shadow dance is the only thing that keeps it mildly interesting.


And this is where problems begin. I love subtlety atm but others might not...which is cool but that's where I think all of the developers nightmares stem from.

If I had to change something, it would be to allow subtlety to get back into stealth more but for like 3-4 seconds at tops, like they do in guild wars 2 where they can move in and out of stealth as much as they want but actually rely on vanishes for proper escapes.

Although I guess that'd mean they'd have to nerf vanish and then more balance changes would be required then they'd probably end up breaking the spec and I'd find myself on a private server before the expansion is over ...

Goddamit I hate choice sometimes

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