My first time 2200 ever and I was Assassin

Rogue
Just a bit of encouragement for other Rogues to take a look at the other specs. Felt really good and at one point I almost considered shelving my Rogue after the nerfs to sub and going Ret Paladin. Really glad I stuck with the class because getting the achievement feels much more rewarding imo than if I had to reroll.

If you want to learn the Assassination play style there is a guide on Arenajunkies in the rogue section.
Yeah, I'll be the first to say it.

Thug Cleave.

Logistically speaking, you would have done even better if you were Sub because it has higher bursts in short periods of time, and can CC off of the hunters trap better.

Without a doubt, Assassination isn't bad, but Sub's still dominant for any team reliant on Burst rather than spread damage.
Yeah, I'll be the first to say it.

Thug Cleave.

Logistically speaking, you would have done even better if you were Sub because it has higher bursts in short periods of time, and can CC off of the hunters trap better.

Without a doubt, Assassination isn't bad, but Sub's still dominant for any team reliant on Burst rather than spread damage.

I'm sorry that you think that running current thug is something easy or to be looked down upon, but I assure you that as of 5.3 it's really hard for anyone to call it a top tier or "fotm" comp. There are much stronger teams you can run simply because of the current state of hybrids. Anyway I disagree with your arguments so I will try to make some points of my own.

Comparing both specs in a scenario where both pop everything at once Sin will come out ahead in damage.

Sin doesn't really need to spread damage constantly. It's just one of the options it has that sub doesn't. If you feel like you have no burst outside cooldowns you must not know the value of pooling energy.

Shadow Dance cheap shots to trap is cute I'm sure, but it isn't needed. If you absolutely can't get a trap otherwise you can MfD / redirect kidney for the easiest trap of your hunters life.

As for your more frequent burst argument, You can macro MfD to synapse / badge and do pool full energy with rupture up > Kidney > MFD Envenom > mut / dispatch spam > any finisher and it does like 40 - 50% of someones health. Add a Hunter with tricks going to that and you have decent burst every minute with mut while doing 2 to 3x more sustained damage.
Why are you marked for death as assassination? I know for sub u 5 point eviscerate but how do you use it in assassination because u don't wanna envenom over the top of the other one.
Why are you marked for death as assassination? I know for sub u 5 point eviscerate but how do you use it in assassination because u don't wanna envenom over the top of the other one.


It's great for cc its a kidney on any target whenever you need it and it allows you to Envenom a target in a full stun before you actually spend any of your energy. That way when you dump energy into mutilates you already have the envenom buff + prey on the weak up which is the maximum damage possible outside of big cooldowns.

If shuriken was 20 energy I would use it but as it is now it's just pathetic. There's something to be said for just allowing yourself to get back to 100% energy if you have to sit a cc too.
Gratz on the 2.2k Snooky

I tried sin like a week and a bit ago and capped out at 2k...MUST TRY IT AGAIN AFTER EXAMS.

Although I kind of agree with stabi, I think subs probably better but it requires more co-ordination and timing(...timing which can be easily prevented by getting rooted or snared or w/e).

Games don't last that long, and even if you get like 0 restealths you'll still have more burst windows than with sin. Sin just does really stronk damage all the time, and excecutes like a mofo.

Edit: Btw were you using deadly and your hunter was widowing or did you just go wound?


Edit: Btw were you using deadly and your hunter was widowing or did you just go wound?


My hunter goes Devilsaur because Shale Spider isn't mandatory anymore.
Since we're talking assassination pvp, I notice how often this spec gets thumbed down by die hard sub fans or extremely "skilled" players, while I agree that sub has the most tools to succeed in pvp, I also feel a need to highlight a little bit history.

In a time when there were no DKs, no monks and shamans and paladins were limited to each faction, rogues didn't have dance or shadowstep or mutilate for that matter, we had cookie cutter builds that could dominate in most situations, but as usual, we had to set the tempo for the fight, get the ball rolling and don't get caught outta stealth. I won't touch on how annoying PoM Pyros and going toe to toe with warriors were, but these instances were the major headaches of the day (not to mention 30sec long cc's that had no DR, which is just dumb and I'll leave that out of this). Rarely do we get to pull off the stuff mute/kishkumen does in his pvp vid world of roguecraft, reason: people hate us man, if they even sense that a rogue is around, they are just holding back all their cds an ccs, we pop out or they flush us and they would throw everything us. Or maybe most of us sucked. You decide.

Anyway, it was at this time that Blizz introduced Mutilate, right down the bottom of the assassination tree. My personal opinion at the time was that it sucked. I was so wrong, I went combat and my guild rogue class leader (who later went gladiator in s1, when arenas was introduced in BC as a mutilate rogue) said dude, you fail, mutilate man. I was like naw, combat baby! and challenged me to a duel. Flawless victory. 100-0. I did nothing to him and we had equivalent gear. God damn it. So as time went by, blizz introduced shadow step and then a bit later, shadow dance as icing on the cake for sub.

I don't really have a point here, just being nostalgic and remembering old times. I've had fun playing both assassination and subtlety. I just wanna point out to everyone, that we shouldn't be dissing any talent tree and should instead focus on improving the pvp experience of all three trees. As it is, isn't it great that we can pvp in all 3 specs and not feel terribly gimped? Some classes don't get that liberty. So lets make things better for all the sub guys out there, all the assassination fellas and all the combat dudes! By making suggestions (that blizz hopefully comes across), encouragement (like snooky here did) and giving advice to the new guys.

Pardon my little wall of text, just wanted to get it out there, have fun with yer class, go for constructive complaining/criticism instead of just complaining/criticizing aimlessly and for them theorycrafters, theorycraft the &@!# out of everything! -AND share, please do share :)

Oh, and grats Snooky! A real inspiration to us all!
06/09/2013 09:29 PMPosted by Snooky
Why are you marked for death as assassination? I know for sub u 5 point eviscerate but how do you use it in assassination because u don't wanna envenom over the top of the other one.


It's great for cc its a kidney on any target whenever you need it and it allows you to Envenom a target in a full stun before you actually spend any of your energy. That way when you dump energy into mutilates you already have the envenom buff + prey on the weak up which is the maximum damage possible outside of big cooldowns.

If shuriken was 20 energy I would use it but as it is now it's just pathetic. There's something to be said for just allowing yourself to get back to 100% energy if you have to sit a cc too.


^This person knows what's up about Mut pvp.
Snooky,

Grats on your 2200. I noticed you chose Subterfuge and Glyph of Stealth. I was using this with Sub in 5.2 and found the Glyph to make the Talent, as well as CnD, really powerful together. Are you finding that this is also the case in a Mut build? How much of your play involves restealths and re-opening in spite of the fact your don't get nearly as much benefit as a Sub rogue for doing so (i.e. no FW and no MoS)? Is it really that integral to your strat to have both?
Thank you Rhazes.

Snooky,

Grats on your 2200. I noticed you chose Subterfuge and Glyph of Stealth. I was using this with Sub in 5.2 and found the Glyph to make the Talent, as well as CnD, really powerful together. Are you finding that this is also the case in a Mut build? How much of your play involves restealths and re-opening in spite of the fact your don't get nearly as much benefit as a Sub rogue for doing so (i.e. no FW and no MoS)? Is it really that integral to your strat to have both?


I actually run cloak and dagger in arena and shadow step for battlegrounds and duels only. I will go for a re-stealth for whatever reason I stopped being able to hit the guy i'm on, whether he got a freedom and outran me or I had to sit a cc. Otherwise I won't drop what I'm doing if there's no issue with me chasing my target because my sustained is significant and I want to be on top of refreshing rupture / slice over anything else so that when its time to burst i'm 100% ready.

So to answer your question, you are 100% fine without going for re-stealth as Sin if you aren't the one being hit, but the time will obviously come when your target slips from your grasp in which case you will benefit more from a re-stealth than waddling across the map trying to catch up.

My opener from a mid game re-stealth will be a garrote + auto attack on as any of the non cc targets to spread venomous wounds everywhere, or cheap shot > 2 point rupture on anything popping offensive cooldowns, and then I will end up back on my kill target on the last second of subterfuge with garrote.

Glyph of stealth is just a really convenient glyph that I prefer. There's the obvious synergy with cloak and dagger and subterfuge like you mentioned. If you vanish with huge dots on you and your healer still hasn't quite gotten you up, you can get back to stealth 2 seconds after subterfuge fades ( 90% of the time not enough time for someone to hit you if you walk the right way) instead of a full 6 seconds. You can also get a quick stealth if you get caught in a pet nova or flare, the latter of which doesn't even put you into combat.


Glyph of stealth is just a really convenient glyph that I prefer. There's the obvious synergy with cloak and dagger and subterfuge like you mentioned. If you vanish with huge dots on you and your healer still hasn't quite gotten you up, you can get back to stealth 2 seconds after subterfuge fades ( 90% of the time not enough time for someone to hit you if you walk the right way) instead of a full 6 seconds. You can also get a quick stealth if you get caught in a pet nova or flare, the latter of which doesn't even put you into combat.


That's what my experience was with Glyph of Stealth. So underrated in 5.1 when I first called it being a strong Glyph to choose. Thanks for the info!
Tbh in an arena MFD is worth it for the burst. You wouldn't think envenoms would ever hit hard, but I use mfd for 2 5x combo pt envenoms during a kill window after I have blown everything. They hit for over 100k.

Granted, no cool downs brewing, it's hitting for laughable numbers. But you'd be surprised how quick you can burst something down. I've killed paladins before they bubbled as assass. !@#$ty paladins sure not disputing that but you can legit take off 400k hp, reliably, in one rotation as assass.

Maybe I am just horrible, I know the whole "skill ceiling so high in sub brah" thing on these forums, but I never have done damage like that with sub.

I think tbh a lot of it is borderline exploiting in that so much burst in the game doesn't even come from abilities it's coming from trinkets (shado pan assault + gladiator trink, LOTS of agi, even after the nerf) and even though assassination is a sustained damage spec on paper, it actually plays like pseudo sub and ends up doing more or equal burst in the end.

Sin rogues owning in arenas right now aren't doing it with damage over time I can assure you haha. It's all burst.


There's a point where high sustained damage starts becoming burst damage. In my experience, that's right around the time you proc 6908 Ag for 40 sec in PvP from Vicious Talisman of the Shado Pan Assault. Stacking dmg modifiers from skills/abilities/talents at this point is overwhelming pressure that becomes burst.

I'll say it again: if you play Mut PvP, you need this trinket. I hate PvE and got it after like 2 ToT LFR runs. I suggest everyone do the same...
Assassination was always my favorite spec during vanilla, bc and cataclysm but now...
It lacks buttons to press. Cold Blood was removed along with Backstab and many other sick talents which made it fun. Which made me angry and basically the whole idea of the original "dagger spec" was removed. I simply do not find it at all enjoyable to play at the moment.
I've been assassination for PvP for years now, and until a few months ago I was mut for PvP in 2s as well. I switched to sub partly because of 5.2 CnD and partly because I always had a problem with energy regen as mut. With sub I find I usually don't run out of energy to use my burst (CS, garrote, ambush) + shadow blades/trinket/shadow dance but with mut I find myself waiting for energy regen even after opening with garrote to proc venomous wounds. It's really the energy regen that affects my burst as mut in PvP.

I've been keen to try mut again though as I really like the playstyle. According to the post on Arena Junkies and the one here you are (for 2s) supposed to garrote both targets, blind the CC one and cheap shot the kill and then open up on it after subterfuge ends, so that you have garrote rolling on 2 toons. Obviously you lose a sap if you do this. Is this the best way to do the opener to keep your energy regen up?

For 3s apparently you garrote 3, blind one and CS the kill all in the 3 secs subterfuge gives you. Obviously I'm not very good but it seems to be a lot to do in 3 sec?
Gratz on ur 2.2k Snooky!
Btw do u have any vid to share so I can learn assassination style on arena?
Grats Snooky

Love Assasin rogues!
06/09/2013 09:29 PMPosted by Snooky
Why are you marked for death as assassination? I know for sub u 5 point eviscerate but how do you use it in assassination because u don't wanna envenom over the top of the other one.


It's great for cc its a kidney on any target whenever you need it and it allows you to Envenom a target in a full stun before you actually spend any of your energy. That way when you dump energy into mutilates you already have the envenom buff + prey on the weak up which is the maximum damage possible outside of big cooldowns.

If shuriken was 20 energy I would use it but as it is now it's just pathetic. There's something to be said for just allowing yourself to get back to 100% energy if you have to sit a cc too.


Ive been using MFD this week as mut and i love it, i believe its better than s toss in its current state as well.
Yes we dont envenom twice but the points can be used for a full kindey or rupture and adds to our overall burst and cc.
(Congrats on crushing 2 k on mut!)

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