5.4 DoC change

Druid
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06/12/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Arielle
Heck, even near perfect DoC execution still leaves us in the middle.
Isn't this kind of statement misleading? Isn't "in the middle" exactly where a DPS spec should be?

Or is the issue that the skillcap to get to where you should be so high?


I think the point was that good execution gets you to the middle of the pack - by using the more difficult talent to squeeze that bit more out. So the question is, why is DoC effectively getting a nerf when using it puts us in the middle, which arguably, is where we should be. I.E. Why nerf a talent that is performing mid-pack.
It's not overpowered, but apparently being too complex deserves a nerf.

Take it further, and you may as well nerf the whole spec because it is too complicated. That seems to be the reasoning here.
Eh, couple other nerfs to cats:

Innervate now causes the target to gain mana equal to 50% of the casting Druid’s Spirit every second for 10 seconds.

Cuz having an innervate return 1-2k mana over 10 seconds is freaking amazing amirite?
Cuz having an innervate return 1-2k mana over 10 seconds is freaking amazing amirite?
Dont think this is a nerf to cats ... think this is more pointed at boomkins giving innervate to healers. Ferals giving innervate hasnt been worth the global cool-down to switch out of cat form for a while now ... and honestly, its for the best. Managing healers mana is not a mele dps's job (other than not standing in fire)
as a feral who does mostly solo content and lfr, i love doc for it's versatility. taking the damage bonus away from everything but rip (not to mention the overall dps hit) makes it far less compelling.

the notion of "reducing complexity" is bull. BC's John Madden feral was complex. DoC isn't even close.

As it is, it's a fun talent that works with a variety of play styles. after the change i'll probably just go w/ hotw for the passive.
06/12/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Firelèáf
hasnt been worth the global cool-down to switch out of cat form


The main problem is when we switch specs. If going to one of the melee specs, you kept a full mana bar, then the innervate change would be a non-issue, but losing it means we would need to have food handy for any spec change just to shapeshift.

06/12/2013 09:05 AMPosted by Alfonzzo
BC's John Madden feral

It was Wrath, not BC. BC's feral was one of the least complicated versions.

All that said, yeah, reducing complexity is kind of silly. It was one of those things that made people who liked Wrath's feral complexity happy with this expac. Now... meh.
06/12/2013 09:05 AMPosted by Alfonzzo
the notion of "reducing complexity" is bull. BC's John Madden feral was complex. DoC isn't even close.

First: As mentioned above it was Wrath.

Second: We do everything now that we did in Wrath. Plus you add in DoC/thrash. (maybe you had to babysit mangle if you had no arms warrior) I don't understand how anyone can say WotLK feral was more difficult than DoC feral.
DoC for feral is a fairly major nerf- both to healing (No more 30% buffed Rejuves, only 20% buffed HT), and to damage (15% damage to rip only, compared to previous 30% to next to abilities ala rip/rake) DoC is now worst talent for Feral- 15% constant buff to one ability doesn't compare to the 6% agility buff, +casterburst, or the 10% to all abilities with 33% uptime.

Large upgrade for resto- they had to buff the other 2 talents specifically FOR resto for this buff. Man, resto's getting some serious love this patch.

Meh for Guardian. Too RNG for reliable Rebirths (Double rng. Chance on a chance. Should either be chance on mangle OR 100% on mangle crits)

Iffy for balance. For AoE, decent buff- cast a HT for a 10% buff to AoE/multidotting. Better then before for single target, but me thinks that HotW will be better for pure single target fights.

Live DoC not only increased the skill level needed for max dps (try to get all rips/rakes DoC buffed, is possible and needed for max dps), it would reward more effort for more dps, but misusage of the talent decreased your dps compared to the other 2 (there was this one feral who had DoC talent, but in a 8 min fight, only used HT twice)

So, keep PTR versions for Balance/Resto, some slight modifications for Guardian, and bring back old DoC for Feral.
06/12/2013 03:28 AMPosted by Waraila
It's probably why they removed NS from the talent tier as well.. because if you took DoC, NS was also mandatory.

No they removed NS because of PVP Ferals making use of the heal and instant CC. Has nothing to do with DoC

06/12/2013 04:44 AMPosted by Waraila
Also in attitude. It irked me personally no end that ferals who did not use the DoC rotation were looked down on as inferior. Trying to argue otherwise, that HoTW was a perfectly viable choice, got you seen as a bad feral dps.

Where have you actually seen this? As a very progressed Feral I still have to use HotW for a few Heroic farm fights every week (Iron Qon, Twins). Plenty of top end Ferals ranked with HotW. There is no question DoC was the higher damage talent for someone skilled enough to use it. But that made it a trade. Easier with raid utility, or more difficult with a possible higher result.

Show me a Feral Theory crafter, or a high end Feral who was saying DoC or you are bad.
tbh if they make feral mindless by removing the complex of DoC ill probably just stop playing wow, they just keep making everything that is fun.. simple and mindless and boreing
DoC for feral is a fairly major nerf- both to healing (No more 30% buffed Rejuves, only 20% buffed HT), and to damage (15% damage to rip only, compared to previous 30% to next to abilities ala rip/rake) DoC is now worst talent for Feral- 15% constant buff to one ability doesn't compare to the 6% agility buff, +casterburst, or the 10% to all abilities with 33% uptime.

Meh for Guardian. Too RNG for reliable Rebirths (Double rng. Chance on a chance. Should either be chance on mangle OR 100% on mangle crits)


Yah, I can see what they are trying to do ... and I dont disagree. Making DoC easier to use and more useful for non-kittys would help out the druid community as a whole ... however, in its current state its a nerf across the board for kittys ... and a bad one at that.

If they want to make it less complex then they should change it to be a buff on all finishing moves to give us a personal mangle bleed modifier. Aka all personal bleeds are buffed on application by 25%. If you wanted to make it not broken OP in pvp you could make it a stacking buff ... lasts 45s stacks 5 times 5% per stack.

As far as Guardian ... 20% chance on a ~60% crit chance on a skill that can be used once every 6 seconds means we might get a heal once every 10 or so mangles ... or once a min. Which is comparable to NS + HT ... but less predictable ... on a tanking class. Why any guardian would choose this over 6% base stats and increased healing when not tanking ... is beyond me. If they wanted to make this useful for Guardians they would make it a 100% chance on mangle to proc an absorb shield for a % of the bears total health ... (aka old school bear bubble) which would help w/ the spikyness of tanking as a bear.
I'm trying so hard to remind myself this is just un-official pre-patch notes stuff and not jump on the forums and scream!

thus far... this kitty gives this proposed change a THUMBS DOWN... and middle finger.
This is the exact kind of development strategy that will eventually ruin WoW (and why they have been losing subs since Cata)

Step 1: Baddies cry about something good because they can't master it. (Hint: The fact that baddie is doing 50k and I'm doing 150k with the same ilvl is not because I use DoC)
Step 2: Blizzard nerfs the skillcap so the baddie will stop crying, baddie's still not happy; cause still baddie
Step 3: Game gets a little more boring for everyone

So, keep accommodating this guy:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5616901894

He will keep buying pets/trading cards until the rest of us quit, and then he'll quit too. Good job.
Step 1: Baddies cry about something good because they can't master it. (Hint: The fact that baddie is doing 50k and I'm doing 150k with the same ilvl is not because I use DoC)
Step 2: Blizzard nerfs the skillcap so the baddie will stop crying, baddie's still not happy; cause still baddie
Step 3: Game gets a little more boring for everyone

So that whole change of SR for MoP didn't happen then? This is a silly argument with no value.

The proposed change is bad. We will not get anything done by making whiny complaints like this.

We need to focus on why the mechanics of this change are bad and explain to blizzard in a constructive manor.
The SR change was stupid too. I'm not really making an argument, I'm stating why Blizzard is doing what they are doing.

Good luck. Maybe if we proposed to blizzard that they could charge us a $0.01 microtransaction each time we buffed a rake with DoC, then they'd let us keep it.

Edit: P.S. blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay anymore. All they care about is maximizing the amount of money they can get out of the game, so unless we can explain to them why doing stupid stuff like this will lose them money in the long run, they don't care.
i call lies on this... whinning actually gets alot of change..hence pally/mage/pvp bads whiners get alot of catering.

Cause that totally worked when they took our root breaking? Or worked when they changed SR? How about Stampede being removed?

Feral is a very under represented spec, while druid is a very highly played class. Us whining doesn't do !@#$. When we produce numbers and reasoned feedback sometimes things get fixed. Whining doesn't do anything for us.
06/12/2013 01:42 PMPosted by Hopperz
The SR change was stupid too. I'm not really making an argument, I'm stating why Blizzard is doing what they are doing.

How can you say they are dumming down the rotation for casuals when they specifically stated they felt that SR had become to easy and so wanted to add challenge back into it? Why was it a stupid change anyway? It did make the rotation less forgiving, but it also gave them a way to buff us as needed. What was stupid about it?
Step 1: Baddies cry about something good because they can't master it. (Hint: The fact that baddie is doing 50k and I'm doing 150k with the same ilvl is not because I use DoC)
Step 2: Blizzard nerfs the skillcap so the baddie will stop crying, baddie's still not happy; cause still baddie
Step 3: Game gets a little more boring for everyone


This is the kind of thing I was talking about Tinder, the puffed up expectation that DoC is superior and that any people who don't use it are bads. DoC was frankly too strong in comparison to both HoTW and NV... now you know Blizz nerfs rather than buffs things as a reaction, so I'd assume they've brought DoC to the theoretical same level as the other two talents.

PTR testing will be there to fine tune it, I hope at least. That way if they've gone too far with the nerf to it, they'll buff it back up to be on par etc. Otherwise they'll create the same problem with one of the other two talents.
Dream of Cenarius has been completely redesigned to reduce complexity and increase usability, but maintain the spirit of the effects.


sorry but that is not a very beneficial change for us. It does reduce complexity yes, but it does not increase usability. If anything, it lowers my abilities. 15% increased damage for Rip is nice, but I don't rip as often as I do for other abilities. Rake, mangle, shred, FB, ravage are all benefited by the current DoC. Once this change goes into play, it will benefit me ALOT less of the times. While I'm not a good theorycrafter on how much damage this nerf/buff will change for me, I just don't think I like this change very much.
Glyph of Rip + Glyph of Cat Form = 5.4 DoC

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