Kil'Jaden's Cunning - Proposed 5.4 Discussion

Warlock
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The initial release of the Patch 5.4 patch notes has sparked quite an up stir in the Warlock Community, specifically regarding the changes being made to Kil’jaden’s Cunning. For the sake of reference, here is the proposed change:
• Kil'jaden's Cunning is no longer a passive ability. Kil'jaden's Cunning now now has a duration of 15 seconds with a 1.5 minute cooldown.

I am creating this thread for a number of reasons. The first and primary thing I must bring to attention is the fact that as a human who plays a warlock I must admit that I am quite biased. My thoughts on this particular change are directly affected by the fact that I play a warlock in WoW. Because of this I will try to stick to the facts, however because of my personal ideals and desires the final outcome of what I say may be skewed. I hope that by admitting this openly I am able to provide a more concise and true observation of my thoughts and others.
With that being said there is on more monkey to let out of the cage; I realize these are very initial PTR Patch notes, and that not everything included in them will come to fruition. It is my objective to influence future events and make certain that this particular change is one of those items that is excluded. I wish for this particular change to this ability to not simply be ‘crossed out in red,’ but to be completely stricken from existence, as if it never came to be.
But first things first…
There are many valid arguments being presented by both sides. Let us address them.

TOO POWERFUL
Firstly I will address the initial problem of this ability being far too powerful. Let’s take a look at how the talent works – what it gives and what it takes as it is now in 5.3. With this talent I no longer have to choose between having to cast a spell and moving. If a green beam of death targets me, I do not have to stop casting, I can move without the cast being interrupted. This is quite huge, I will admit. Not having to make that decision anymore takes quite a burden off my back.
The burden however, is still there…
Let’s compare a couple of current fights and throw this talent into the mix. I will first present the Magaera fight. I can move while casting at the same time, and this fight is heavily move dependent! That makes it a walk in the park, correct? Not quite. While I can run forward and strafe while still attacking the boss, this will still only help me in the initial pull. Later in the fight I am mandated to turning completely around and running in the opposite direction of the boss. You know what? I can move while casting at the same time, but what I cannot do is cast at something that is behind me. This means that I have still had to make the same sacrifice as my fellow casters, even with this level 90 talent. This same ideal holds true for other bosses. I could list, but I risk being repetitive.
WHAT HAVE I SACRIFICED
15-30% of my movement speed is the initial response, but it is only HALF of what is really sacrificed. (And I would like to point out, that in many circumstances, that 15-30% debuff can be QUITE deadly, especially near current endgame content including The Thunder King himself, and Durumu specifically).
Moving and casting at the same time takes practice. While it is very easy to begin a cast, and begin running to avoid a spell, it is very difficult to maintain a constant momentum while casting the whole time through. ESPECIALLY while strafing. It is also almost downright impossible unless you have the proper macros and key bindings set up to back-petal while casting. Something that mandates such practice is not in fact too powerful. You have simply sacrificed one style of gameplay for another. The only thing that makes this particular talent ‘powerful’ is the fact that other casters do not have the option of taking it as well.

IT’S A LEVEL 90 TALENT
My warlock is the only character I have currently raised to level 90, so I won’t be able to provide too much honest feedback in this particular area. I will say that I believe an end-game talent should be game changing and should provide something substantial. This doesn’t mean it should be a trump card that leaves all other’s in the dust, I don’t feel that as the talent currently stands it does that. I WILL SAY that I feel that the other talents are rather lacking, but I risk diverting from the original subject matter presented here.
If the concern is that all players are taking KJC and not the other talents, then the initial problem doesn’t have to be KJC. The other talents may simply be lacking, and require rework, rather than ‘nerfing’ this one.

WHERE ARE WE HEADED?
KJC presents a new dimension to raids and all areas of the game in its current design in 5.3. It has the potential to open up new doors for the future of raiding. I would personally not be immensely upset if all caster’s took after warlocks and learnt how to master the arts of movement-oriented spellcraft. (With the exception of healers… I have a hard enough time defeating Disc Priests in 2v2s even WITH KJC. I couldn’t imagine the horror if they could cast and move with ALL of their spells as well).
I hope that one day we will be able to all enjoy the potential of Mounted combat spellcasting as well. (Imagine a battle ground that takes place high in the sky, as players take part in attempting to capture certain floating fortresses, all the while casting their current rotations from the backs of dragons a gryhons).
What does the future hold? Great things – but only if we advance and change and progress.
I NOTICED…
You added something called Demonic Breathe to the level 30 talent tree. Reminds me of something we used to have in Cataclysm… Something that used to require that I spend a lot of time in Melee as a demonology warlock. If I’m going to be spending more time in melee due to the introduction of this talent (This is a hypothesis, and has yet to be seen), movement without hindrance would be rather… crucial.

WE DON’T NEED MORE BUTTONS
There’s not much more I can say on this matter, except that let me tell you, it is the truth. Even if the talent doesn’t share a cool down with other abilities, it is still too much. All of my bars are full even with Macros. I don’t know what percentage of the player population doesn’t care to take the time to make macros, and I don’t want to make something up. From a personal observation, I can say it probably isn’t very substantial.

IN CLOSING…
Kil’jaden’s Cunning is a very unique talent presents forth a completely new dimension for all warlocks who enjoy Player Vs Player and Player vs Environment combat. I hope that there can be some form of a compromise can be made. The current proposed changes will only affect many warlocks in a negative connotation.

If I missed anything for an argument from either side, please let me know, and let us discuss this further henceforth.
Just keep KJC passive but have the debuff stack to 60% instead of 30% and bring back the old "activate" 1.5 min cooldown button with no slow debuff, and have you unable to run while casting while it's on cooldown. Problem solved.
/signed
/signed.
What creepshow said, although I believe there's no reason it shouldn't be a passive ability (not talent) for ALL caster classes. All classes have the ability to move and cast, but each cast reduces your movement speed by 15%, stacking up to 4 times, and lasting X seconds. This would make it vital to not overuse the ability, as being slowed by 60% in many of this tiers encounters would probably not end very well for you. Now 60% would probably be almost too strong, so...toggle? And for pvp, who are you going to get away from being slowed by 60%? Would be vital to not abuse it there either.
I could (and may later) draw out a long response to the proposed KJC change. All I can say is that as a top tier raiding warlock, I don't believe the change will break the class. For years all of us raided without being able to move. It's very doable, but is it necessary?

All it will do is make Warlocks less enjoyable to play. If that is Blizzard's desire and intentional then so be it, but this change is in no way going to add anything to the game. It will not create balance. It will not even out the classes. It is not progression, it in fact devolves the game. There is a reason that nearly every new MMO has baseline movement for casters. The old model of making casters suffer by restricting mobility is tired and outdated.

Also, currently all three specs are quite viable and enjoyable in a raid setting. If this change goes through, I cannot imagine a situation where demonology will not pull far, FAR ahead given the blatant advantage meta will give to any fight requiring mobility.

So in a TLDR, this change will not make warlocks bad, it will just make them less fun to play.
The way I feel about KJC is that its the reason we are able to be competitive in PvE. If they take the passive away I feel like we'll fall to the middle of the pack at least for aff and destro. For demo, i think we can still remain near the top though because of meta. However, that ruins blizzards plan of wanting all specs to be viable to raid. They currently are all viable, where each spec has fights its best on and such. If they go through with the change as it stands now, which I don't believe will happen, it will be changed or possibly even scrapped for something else ( I seem to recall them wanting to nerf our defensives a bit), 2 of the warlock specs will fall behind the other drastically.
Just keep KJC passive but have the debuff stack to 60% instead of 30% and bring back the old "activate" 1.5 min cooldown button with no slow debuff, and have you unable to run while casting while it's on cooldown. Problem solved.


Honestly, 30% movement speed debuff is enough. With all the gap closers and general speed that melee classes have now, you aren't going to get away from them if you are casting while moving.

I don't see why this change was implemented. Classes like Boomkins in PvP almost never cast because they go off of instant procs that hit just as hard or harder than my 2.5 second Chaos Bolts. Mages will once again be better than locks with all of their control over the battlefield with freezes and polymorphs.

I fear for what affliction will be like in PvP if this change actually gets made. For those who say that affliction was fine in Cata without KJC, affliction was completely different in Cata. We didn't have to channel MG to do any pressure. Just apply dots and CC, now, dots are barely even felt.

Demo is looking better and better since I can just Fel Flame spam until I am ready to burst.
Zeedrate, seems to me that locks will survive, but only by switching en masse to demo as the spec least harmed by the KJC change. I like demo fine, but don't necessarily want to play that all the time.
I will continue to show my support for these threads.

KJC is a substantial reason I play a warlock; not a mage; not a boomkin.

I do, personally believe, that me having KJC over other casters who can't move while casting is reasonably concerning.

However, I see no problem with letting other casters move while casting. As other people have stated - the stand and turret style DPS is archaic. It's really lame to give us something incredible then just take it away. Instead, give it to other casters. They'll enjoy it, too.

Edit: /signed
Good luck doing the Green Fire Quest w/ no KJC.

Are they gonna completely rework that quest too?

/signed

PS - I can only shudder at the fact of hardcasting chaos bolts, having to move, having to cast, having to move, having to cast..

PSS- And keep in mind that the rework of KJC is what Mages have as a Tier 1? Talent I believe.. So why the hell should we get the SAME THING at 90?

Just keep KJC passive but have the debuff stack to 60% instead of 30% and bring back the old "activate" 1.5 min cooldown button with no slow debuff, and have you unable to run while casting while it's on cooldown. Problem solved.


That's wayy too much. 30% is definitely plenty. I'll hit both Worgen sprint and burning rush (which stack), and sometimes it's barely enough.
It's freaking ridiculous to completely change a class play style mid xpac... Take out away from Hunters if you take it from locks......

This is the primary reason I like lock now as opposed to before... Screw pvp... I don't pvp and view I get a playstyle revamp.

This isn't an issue of "talent teir balance".. Everyone choosing kjc.. Nerf so they choose other talents. I don't want more buttons to push.

Just adjust the about locks are slowed in pvp and leave pve alone...

I am mad at the idea.
So, for our level 90 talent we basically get a Mage level 15 talent that absolutely no Mage takes....that's awesome...great job, Blizz!
Zeedrate, seems to me that locks will survive, but only by switching en masse to demo as the spec least harmed by the KJC change. I like demo fine, but don't necessarily want to play that all the time.


Precisely. I cannot predict what the next tier will be like, but I can most certainly say that in this tier if KJC were like this, I would play nothing but demo.

As is, I switch between demo and affliction pretty regularly (just not a personal fan of destro) and never feel gimped. In fact, I progressed through the entire tier on heroic with the exception of Lei-Shen as affliction and never felt at a disadvantage. If KJC were a cooldown I would've been demo from the start and never looked back, there would simply be no reason to go affliction with the amount of mobility demo provides.
Stop taking about demo's mobility please.......seriously...... Demo has No mobility *wink*

*whisper* shhhh.. They will nerf bat demo shhhh...
Damn blizzard, why u do this? ;/
First, I'd like to point out that I switched my main from a Guardian to a Warlock.

Why did I roll a Warlock instead of any other casters ? Because it felt unique to be able to cast while moving. It made it different from other classes.

Now, with that being said. Removing KJC would totally affect our numbers. Currently, Warlocks are far from being the best DPS out there. Sure we do great, but it is greatly due to KJC. On many fights (Lei Shen, Durumu, even Council), there is a lot of movement involved. What others gain in DPS, we gain in movement. Going to be honest, if it hadn't been for KJC, it would have been almost impossible to kill Kanrethad.

Now, I know lots of people say this talent is much too strong. But then again, as it has been pointed already in this topic, Demo provides good mobility. Will the only reliable spec for raiding be Demonology ? I thought Developers learned their lesson when Beast Mastery was the only viable raiding spec for Hunters due to that same reason.

I totally agree with those who said to make it less forgiving. 60% stacking debuff sounds just fair.

My real problem with them nerfing it that bad, is making the classes all feel the same. Why a Destro lock and not a Fire Mage then ?

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