JC: Removing Orb Of Mystery, Panther Recipes

Professions
Hello all. For those that are unaware, Zen Master Jewelcrafters are capable of creating Gemstone Panthers, (also called Voltron Panthers due to their color scheme) mounts provided they have access to the patterns from the Order of the Cloud Serpent.

Each of the 4 "base" mounts (Jade Panther, Sunstone Panther, Ruby Panther, and Sapphire Panther) require 20 of the Rare Pandarian Gem of their color, 4 Living Steel (and thus Trillium Transmuted from an Alchemist, an expensive prospect), and 2 Serpent's Eyes (JC created from prospecting and used in the creation of rare JC items), along with an "Orb of Mystery". The final fifth mount, the Jeweled Onyx Panther, is created exclusively from all 4 previously discussed panther mounts (unused of course - in one's inventory, not the mount display), to create one Jeweled Onyx Panther mount.

Originally, I thought this may be a nice opportunity to provide "flavor" for Jewelcraft which is sadly missing in professions (JC included) as of late, but it is the Orb of Mystery that makes the creation of these mounts untenable for all but the wealthiest. While all the other items can be created in game or purchased from other players, the Orb of Mystery is sold from Big Keech in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms for a whopping sum of 18,000g, each. Truly a ridiculous expense for those interested in crafting a single panther for their own use, but if you consider a JC who wanted to own the entire collection of 5 panthers, it would take 144,000g in Orbs of Mystery alone (4 for each previous panther to "learn", 4 for another copy of each panther to create the Jeweled Onyx Panther!) not counting the other costs of materials!

Sadly there are already some truly insane gold sinks in Mists of Pandaria (ie the 100,000g Grand Yak), which I feel are already way too expensive - the vast majority of players will never end up with 100,000g - it is only an absolutely minute amount of the population that, through auction manipulation, sales of extremely rare items or events (raid slots, PVP slots etc..) will ever come even close. MoP's prices even on things like the Black Market AH etc.. have gone way out of wack; it seems that Blizz has forgotten that for many players who don't study the secrets of moneymaking, simply affording Master Riding (and all associated flying fees) is still a lot of money, much less something like the costs of entering the Brawler' Guild!. There are already enough reasonable goldsinks out there (ie the 2000g White Shaghorn Goat from the Tillers etc..) that these excessive ones are not necessary. If it is necessary to handle those in the top 1% of gold ownership, if would be better spent eliminating some of the tactics available to amass such a fortune that is way outside the curve.

Thus, it is totally unnecessary to bind such an excessive cost to a profession-created item. Simply removing the Orb of Mystery as necessary for the creation of each panther would go a long way to making them affordable and accessible. At this point in Pandaria, it would be much appreciated to allow Jewelcrafters to actually enjoy the fruits of their time and money. If the Orb of Mystery MUST be used, I suggest requiring it only for the creation of the Jeweled Onyx Panther, not for the other 4 (ie The new recipe for Onyx would be the 4 original panthers + 1 Orb of Mystery), and ideally combine this with lowering the price of the Orb by 1/3 - 1/2.

Placing such a barrier to item creation impairs the enjoyment of Jewelcrafting and hamstrings the ability for players to craft the mounts for their own use or for profit. I would greatly appreciate a remedy to this ASAP.
Temeraire:
Sadly there are already some truly insane gold sinks in Mists of Pandaria (ie the 100,000g Grand Yak), which I feel are already way too expensive - the vast majority of players will never end up with 100,000g - it is only an absolutely minute amount of the population that, through auction manipulation, sales of extremely rare items or events (raid slots, PVP slots etc..) will ever come even close. MoP's prices even on things like the Black Market AH etc.. have gone way out of wack; it seems that Blizz has forgotten that for many players who don't study the secrets of moneymaking, simply affording Master Riding (and all associated flying fees) is still a lot of money, much less something like the costs of entering the Brawler' Guild!. There are already enough reasonable goldsinks out there (ie the 2000g White Shaghorn Goat from the Tillers etc..) that these excessive ones are not necessary.

Of course the black market prices are out of whack; that's what the BMAH is for. The whole point of the gold sinks is that they're expensive and suck money out of the economy. I bought myself a grand expedition yak, and while I was saving for it, it prevented me from causing inflation. Now that I'm not very interested in any of the other gold sinks, I just don't care anymore. Last week I spent 800g on a staff for transmog that I was going to use for a few days. That raises the price of all transmog items on the auction house.

You're right to say we need cheap gold sinks, like the white goat, or for that matter repair fees. But we also need expensive ones. We need gold sinks at all levels of income in order to combat inflation.

Temeraire:
If it is necessary to handle those in the top 1% of gold ownership, if would be better spent eliminating some of the tactics available to amass such a fortune that is way outside the curve.

See, this I have a problem with. I like making gold. The gold sinks are nice to have, but even without them, I'd still like making gold. So if you want to get rid of all gold sinks, I wouldn't personally care, but if you want to get rid of the whole gold game—well, that I *do* care about.

Besides, it just sounds vindictive to me. When you propose reducing the price of gold sinks, you're basically saying, "If someone else has this, I want it too." And that doesn't bother me personally. But when you propose getting rid of the gold sinks entirely, let alone gold-making in general, you're saying, "If I don't have this, I don't want anyone else to have it either," and that's just not nice.

All that aside, if you want to get rid of large-scale gold-making in the name of equality, I can respect that argument. It might make the game a lot less fun for me, but I can respect it, and you have every right to argue for the game to be the way you want it. But in that case, I get to ask that raiding be eliminated from the game, because I don't want to bother with it.

Also, checking your character, I find that you have mounts worth a total of $125 from the Blizzard store (not counting the imperial quilen because I can't itemize the cost of the collector's edition). I'm not sure how the pet store works, but you seem to have about 11 pets from it, which works out to $110, raising your total to around $235. Here, I didn't count your three cinder kittens ($30) because I didn't want to hold Red Cross donations against you, but arguably I should have since they illustrate my point just as well as any of the other pets or mounts: If it's okay for you to earn and spend real money on mounts and pets, why is it not okay for others to do the same with in-game money?

Temeraire:
At this point in Pandaria, it would be much appreciated to allow Jewelcrafters to actually enjoy the fruits of their time and money.

Isn't it, like, the most profitable profession in the game?
JCing is insanely profitable when played right.
Absurdly if you farm on the side.

The point of a gold sink is just that; to sink gold from the economy.
These panthers were intended to be as such. Just as it costed an "absurd" amount to make the chopper back in Wrath.

These are fine; If anything we need more random craftable sinks like this in the game.
The only problem I have with mounts like that having materials with set prices like that, is it makes it have a limit to how low you can ever sell it for to make a profit. I'd prefer they required much more gems/steel/eyes, and removed the orbs. That way the market value of the mats dictates the value of the item. I can't see them removing it at this point though.

I stopped trying to sell them shortly after the expac came out. Anybody with the kind of money to buy them, likely has a JC of their own, and it doesn't take long at all to get the rep high enough for the patterns.
Unfortunately the gold sink aspect only works if there's an expensive vendor component.
i find it interesting that you mention excessively high prices on things such as BMAH items and complain about orbs which are directly designed to combat inflation(which is what you are really talking about even though i don't think you realize it).

why do they need to be easily available and super accessible? while yes, 144k is a lot of gold, its not impossible and lets remember we are talking about 100% purely vanity items here. Why cant there be a vanity items that those who put in the effort can show off their accomplishment. Id also like to point out that i have none of the panthers learned despite the fact that i could easily afford them and in fact because of the char transfer sale last week i moved several more of my toons to my server and crafted dozens of these mounts to assist in moving my gold between servers.
Unfortunately the gold sink aspect only works if there's an expensive vendor component.

I actually seriously question how effective large gold sinks are. Many of the players affording them have massive amounts of gold that they will essentially never spend, the gold in those players banks might as well not exist in the game. Me spending 20k of millions that was never going to be spent anyway doesn't change the amount of gold active in the economy. Though i dont think i would really categorize a panther as a large gold sink, at least not the colored ones, but the yak for sure.

I think if there were lots of smaller things it would be way more effective. Things like gems used a 5g vendor bought item to cut or higher repair costs would go a lot further to combating inflation.
Zachstab:
I actually seriously question how effective large gold sinks are. Many of the players affording them have massive amounts of gold that they will essentially never spend, the gold in those players banks might as well not exist in the game. Me spending 20k of millions that was never going to be spent anyway doesn't change the amount of gold active in the economy. Though i dont think i would really categorize a panther as a large gold sink, at least not the colored ones, but the yak for sure.

I think if there were lots of smaller things it would be way more effective. Things like gems used a 5g vendor bought item to cut or higher repair costs would go a lot further to combating inflation.

Yes, I think the gold sinks are directed more at me than you---not the millionaires, but the hundred-thousand-aires. Although I'm guessing there are a lot more hundred-thousand-aires than millionaires, so the sinks may still have some effect.

But you do have an interesting point about the money that rich players have effectively not existing. I'd thought about it before, but not in quite that way. It makes me wonder: Do we really know whether the inflation problem is being caused primarily by a few rich characters, or a bunch of ordinary ones?
Since Zach brought it up:

Raising repair costs would not combat inflation in a balanced manner. The rich wouldn't blink but your poor average player that only logs in to raid would have a much harder time affording progression nights.

Repair costs are similar to sales tax in that it is a much higher percentage of a poor persons income. Rich people do not spend much of their wealth for material goods (comparatively) and poor people send almost all of theirs. So the poor and middle class pay the vast majority of sales tax. I don't believe that model helps the playerbase at all. I certainly don't want a system that punishes those with less gold and less playtime far out of proportion to their playtime.

I am a fan of gold sinks. I have over a million gold tied up in expensive mounts and I'm happy with the costs. If they were to cheap then they wouldn't be a status symbol -and that is all they are. No one "needs" the Grand Expedition Yak or Jeweled Onyx Panther. They simply want the status that comes from owning them.

You can buy a basic mount for a few silver and a flying mount for a couple of hundred gold. Every player should be able to earn the gold for basic flight and riding as they level. They get the same basic benefit as the ultra rich would, mobility. It's fair and balanced. You don't need a luxury mount to get around and that is as it should be. Everyone should be able to play but some of us get to look a little "cooler" while doing so.

Also, it should be noted that "Orbs of Mystery" have a small chance of dropping from Blingtron. My bestie got one and I made him the Ruby Panther using it.

Mounts have never been a real source of income for any profession. Normally people that want one simply find a crafter for a fee and save themselves thousands of gold. They don't tend to buy the ones on the Auction House from what I've seen so for me it's not worth speculating that I "might" be able to sell one for a profit.

TL,DR: If you cannot afford a gold sink mount, then obviously you are not the target market of that mount. Gold sinks need to remain gold sinks. As long as new and average players can afford to ride/fly, the game is fine. We don't need to change costs simply because "you" cannot afford something. That's not the point of a gold sink.

TL,DR: If you cannot afford a gold sink mount, then obviously you are not the target market of that mount. Gold sinks need to remain gold sinks. As long as new and average players can afford to ride/fly, the game is fine. We don't need to change costs simply because "you" cannot afford something. That's not the point of a gold sink.


I agree with this here... Every item in the game should not be available to every player. There needs to be a dynamic.
06/13/2013 12:30 AMPosted by Temeraire
Sadly there are already some truly insane gold sinks in Mists of Pandaria (ie the 100,000g Grand Yak), which I feel are already way too expensive - the vast majority of players will never end up with 100,000g - it is only an absolutely minute amount of the population that, through auction manipulation, sales of extremely rare items or events (raid slots, PVP slots etc..) will ever come even close. MoP's prices even on things like the Black Market AH etc.. have gone way out of wack; it seems that Blizz has forgotten that for many players who don't study the secrets of moneymaking, simply affording Master Riding (and all associated flying fees) is still a lot of money, much less something like the costs of entering the Brawler' Guild!. There are already enough reasonable goldsinks out there (ie the 2000g White Shaghorn Goat from the Tillers etc..) that these excessive ones are not necessary. If it is necessary to handle those in the top 1% of gold ownership, if would be better spent eliminating some of the tactics available to amass such a fortune that is way outside the curve.


Blizz has made it progressively easier over the years to get gold quickly, to the point that you almost have to try not to make gold. I started up again in late April and have already made over 150k, that's with devoting more time to alt leveling, rep grinds and achievements than chasing gold. I don't have a profession assembly line in place, yet and I'm not exactly using tricks that no one out there knows or does.

When leveling a character in pandaland is an easy moneymaker, there's no room to complain. No AH involved.

When capping out your valor turns into a decent way to make gold for a character, you know that Blizz is making it easy on players. When you can take a character through Treasure Trove and make bank then turn around and burn all those Elder Coins on free rolls for lets face it even more gold bags, even a non auction house player can put together money quickly. If you've got 8+ plots open on at least 1 farm you've got all you need to see steady, daily gold gains.

Brawler's Guild doesn't have to cost you a dime. I got my invite off the Wonka inspired NPC that runs around outside the black market crying out that he won an auction for a brawler's ticket. When Brawler's was first released it was going to be expensive, sure. But as time goes on more and more npcs are dropping invites so again it turns into a do less complaining do more farming thing. I've MADE gold joining the Brawler's guild.

Again I'm not trying to make gold and I'm making gold. I don't have a profession system in place yet, need to finish some more alts before I can do that. There's people who make daily, and I'm sure some hourly, what I make in a week but they've got their ducks in a row and system in place. I'm making gold off the old fashioned "get stuff list stuff" tactic that always is a good idea until you can put together a system with your characters to maximize things.

If you don't want to do that just go out into the world, Blizz left plenty of goldpiles for you to trip over.

TL,DR: If you cannot afford a gold sink mount, then obviously you are not the target market of that mount. Gold sinks need to remain gold sinks. As long as new and average players can afford to ride/fly, the game is fine. We don't need to change costs simply because "you" cannot afford something. That's not the point of a gold sink.


I agree with this here... Every item in the game should not be available to every player. There needs to be a dynamic.


But this dynamic should not come from crafted items. JC/tailor/engineering mounts should be available to be made by a lot more of this profession then currently. They could easily add other more expensive vendor items. I have a JC. And not being able to make my JC mount is like a slap in the face. Here is a nice mount for you, but sorry, you can only make it if you have plenty of gold to waste.
But this dynamic should not come from crafted items. JC/tailor/engineering mounts should be available to be made by a lot more of this profession then currently. They could easily add other more expensive vendor items. I have a JC. And not being able to make my JC mount is like a slap in the face. Here is a nice mount for you, but sorry, you can only make it if you have plenty of gold to waste.


They are luxury items. They are not needed to play the game or to get ahead. If you needed an 18000 gold component to cut a meta gem then I would agree with you. Having high value and high cost items available to professions is a good thing. Even if you can't make a dozen and put them on the AH yourself. This doesn't actually prevent you from selling the items and making money off them. You just have to let the person know you have the recipe and can do it... Meet me in the Vale.

Make a few, buy the materials and make your own. That is how the economy works. It isn't really your mount though. If it were meant only for the jewelcrafter it would be BOP and require a Jewelcrafting skill. It is a mount Jewelcrafters can make and sell for profit. There is a very big difference.

However it isn't difficult to make money in this game. I have a level 45 Paladin who currently has made 16,000 gold while leveling. I created a Deathknight on a new server and he is currently level 58 with 10,000 gold... Not hard to make money at all.
If you have jewelcraftng you have the most lucrative profession in the entire game. You can easily make 18,000 gold a week. I can make 18,000 gold a day if I play the auction house instead of pet battle. Even if I pet battle/raid I make roughly 10,000 a day.

It's incredibly easy to make the gold needed to purchase the components. If you can't do it by doing dailies for a couple ofweeks, then your trouble isn't making gold, it's saving it for something you want and that's an entirely different matter.

I want everyone in the game to be able to ride and fly. I think everyone needs to be able to do so and I want it affordable to all. I do not think everyone needs master flight or jewelcrafting mounts. Those are luxuries and are meant to be rewards for effort. I put my effort into making gold and in return I get pretty pixels to ride on. It's not a necessity.\

Edit to add: On my realm there is a Spectral Tiger up for 415,000 gold. I'm liquidating assets. I'm not buying other things I want. I am saving. That's how you get things you want. You work and save. In the next few days it will be mine. It would already be if I hadn't spent so much on mounts and the new pets. Oooops!
I make at least 50k to 75k on most days when I play the AH.
Hello all. For those that are unaware, Zen Master Jewelcrafters are capable of creating Gemstone Panthers, (also called Voltron Panthers due to their color scheme) mounts provided they have access to the patterns from the Order of the Cloud Serpent.

Each of the 4 "base" mounts (Jade Panther, Sunstone Panther, Ruby Panther, and Sapphire Panther) require 20 of the Rare Pandarian Gem of their color, 4 Living Steel (and thus Trillium Transmuted from an Alchemist, an expensive prospect), and 2 Serpent's Eyes (JC created from prospecting and used in the creation of rare JC items), along with an "Orb of Mystery". The final fifth mount, the Jeweled Onyx Panther, is created exclusively from all 4 previously discussed panther mounts (unused of course - in one's inventory, not the mount display), to create one Jeweled Onyx Panther mount.

Originally, I thought this may be a nice opportunity to provide "flavor" for Jewelcraft which is sadly missing in professions (JC included) as of late, but it is the Orb of Mystery that makes the creation of these mounts untenable for all but the wealthiest. While all the other items can be created in game or purchased from other players, the Orb of Mystery is sold from Big Keech in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms for a whopping sum of 18,000g, each. Truly a ridiculous expense for those interested in crafting a single panther for their own use, but if you consider a JC who wanted to own the entire collection of 5 panthers, it would take 144,000g in Orbs of Mystery alone (4 for each previous panther to "learn", 4 for another copy of each panther to create the Jeweled Onyx Panther!) not counting the other costs of materials!

Sadly there are already some truly insane gold sinks in Mists of Pandaria (ie the 100,000g Grand Yak), which I feel are already way too expensive - the vast majority of players will never end up with 100,000g - it is only an absolutely minute amount of the population that, through auction manipulation, sales of extremely rare items or events (raid slots, PVP slots etc..) will ever come even close. MoP's prices even on things like the Black Market AH etc.. have gone way out of wack; it seems that Blizz has forgotten that for many players who don't study the secrets of moneymaking, simply affording Master Riding (and all associated flying fees) is still a lot of money, much less something like the costs of entering the Brawler' Guild!. There are already enough reasonable goldsinks out there (ie the 2000g White Shaghorn Goat from the Tillers etc..) that these excessive ones are not necessary. If it is necessary to handle those in the top 1% of gold ownership, if would be better spent eliminating some of the tactics available to amass such a fortune that is way outside the curve.

Thus, it is totally unnecessary to bind such an excessive cost to a profession-created item. Simply removing the Orb of Mystery as necessary for the creation of each panther would go a long way to making them affordable and accessible. At this point in Pandaria, it would be much appreciated to allow Jewelcrafters to actually enjoy the fruits of their time and money. If the Orb of Mystery MUST be used, I suggest requiring it only for the creation of the Jeweled Onyx Panther, not for the other 4 (ie The new recipe for Onyx would be the 4 original panthers + 1 Orb of Mystery), and ideally combine this with lowering the price of the Orb by 1/3 - 1/2.

Placing such a barrier to item creation impairs the enjoyment of Jewelcrafting and hamstrings the ability for players to craft the mounts for their own use or for profit. I would greatly appreciate a remedy to this ASAP.


*sniffs the air*
This post literally reeks of entitlement and unwillingness to work for what the original poster wants...instead of making any effort at all, just give it to him Blizzard since he is obviously a special snowflake....
Imagine back in Vanilla when the original racial mounts cost 900 gold each. Could take you all year to make 900 gold. That was an investment.
[quote="92798735985"]
the vast majority of players will never end up with 100,000g /quote]

Is that why I bought myself, wife, brother in law one? with the all the yaks?
I got a good question: what'll happen to Big Keech after 5.4? I doubt very much he's going to walk the same patrol from one shrine to the other...
They will probably move him. Haven't logged into the PTR to find out. They are duplicating the quartermaster and have him in each shrine from what I read. Could do the same here.

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