This Game Does Nothing To Teach Bad Players..

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Chess does nothing to teach people how to become better players.

Same can be said for just about every game that exists. You get better of you desire to get better at the game, it's not up to the game itself to teach you the skills needed to excel.

Bad analogy, as bad players can't attempt to be carried in chess.

I seriously don't understand what you're looking for. I feel challenged and epic in a lot of the content I've done in the game. The legendary chain in the Thunder Forge is crazy hard at lower Ilevels.

One of the major issues is how easy LFR is, I feel it encourages bad players to be bad.

I have done Durumu LFR 9 times and I kid you not almost every attempt 5-10 people have died. Most of the times we succeed because there are dps and healer raiders who carry these dead weights. To add insult to injury, these dead players win shiny epics.

Tell me, honestly, what incentive is there for these players to stop being bad and learn to recognise Durumu pattern?
If he (the OP) is so worried about there being too many 'bad players' in WoW because Blizzard is offering too many avenues to play the game, and not requiring them to learn anything of it, whats the difference to the OP? If you are truly a skilled player, you have your own avenues to take when playing the game:

-Join a raiding guild and progress w/o having to worry about said "bad players."
-If you run into said "bad players" in this guild, it isn't Blizzard's fault. Its the fault of the guild for not doing the homework (or tryouts, w/e) on the player who isn't performing.
-If you don't want to do a raiding guild and just want to do LFR, I think its safe to assume you're not into it for the social aspect. Therefore you shouldn't be worrying so much about whether or not others are bad at the game and just go about your business, not to mention LFR is easy enough to the point where you can have some bad players, and still do just fine and dandy.

Point being: You are more in control of your gaming experience in WoW at this moment than ever before. You are complaining about Blizzard making the game too easy and complaining about the bad players they aren't FORCING to learn the game. Yet, Blizzard is trying to add some features to help it out... but they still can't make people do content they don't want to (and would be foolish if they did such a thing with the proving grounds).

It sounds to me like you don't like the way the game is going, and may need a break (permanent or otherwise) from it.

(Rambling man is rambling, hopefully making some sense in his post)
That video is 100% garbage. It's badly exaggerated at the very least (his mathematics are absolutely impossible), and more than likely it's staged.

You didn't watch the video. "That video" is terrible, but the video he linked is actually hilarious and doesn't even talk about WoW directly.

06/18/2013 05:31 PMPosted by Shuku
Excuse my assumptions again but I am gonna guess you started playing after BC when they totally removed everything that made the game challenging. You missed out on a truly wonderful and challenging experience. Now it is replaced with easy face roll content that you can breeze through... well if you are a skilled player that is.

Terrible, terrible assumption to make. There are probably many good players stuck in LFR because they're behind in progression for whatever RL reason, be it lack of funds, stressing time in school / work not allowing a lot of game time, whatever, and people don't want to catch them up. Or they're on a dead server and all the guilds happen to be content with their core / bench. Or their class isn't needed. I could go on.

Not everyone who's stuck here, WANTS to be stuck here.
A lot of the dumbing down that you're talking about is mainly Blizzard implementing what Add-on authors had created.

But I agree, the days of juggling different stats on gear and having different rank heals macro'ed for mana efficiency seem to be behind us.
06/18/2013 05:31 PMPosted by Shuku
I seriously don't understand what you're looking for.

"I seriously don't understand" is exactly right. You DON'T understand and that is why you do not see what I see. Excuse my assumption but I am going to assume that my skill level as a WoW player is many tiers above yours (not saying you are a bad player but you get the point). I can see this because you have only completed current raid content in LFR and nothing else.

You have not experienced what endgamers experience, so of course you do know understand, how could you understand something you never experienced?

Since you didn't even bother looking at the armory of this toon, been there/done that on the hard core during BC. Yes, BC....

You're loosing any ground you made in your argument though, because you're just attacking players. There are a ton of us out there that are looking for a fun and casual experience now, a lot of us are old school hard core raiders who remember 5 hours a night and 6 on each weekend day. You know, raids with dinner and lunch breaks built in because they ended when Kael, Vashj, Illidan, etc died.

There is a benefit to an easier more casual playing experience, the game is meant to fit all sorts of play styles. Pushing it to one extreme and saying that's the norm will only isolate those looking for fun more and more. Even Tigole was smart enough to realize this one.

Every game developer (ESPECIALLY BLIZZARDS!) should watch this short little video and take notes. WoW is not the only game that has catered to the idiots of our society.

This particular line sort of sabotages your point. You really want to aim your critique at game designers not simply mindlessly flame people who play the games - or more likely, flame straw men who probably do not even exist.

I don't disagree with the arguments in this thread - WoW could use better tutorial stuff. The Secret World is not an easy game, but it does take time to teach players various mechanics. An early boss you can solo uses attacks more typical for instances and shows how to respond to AOEs using LOS, or knowing where to stand. Hopefully the proving grounds will be the thing it's touted to be.

I just don't see how expressing contempt for people who aren't even responsible for what you're critiquing contributes to the point you're trying to make.
06/18/2013 05:44 PMPosted by Shuku
Since you didn't even bother looking at the armory of this toon, been there/done that on the hard core during BC. Yes, BC....

Umm.. you have no heroic achievements for BC, and you cleared them all when WotLK came out so you were probably level 80 or at least being carried by 80s.

Nice try though buddy.

Wow.... just LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!

He really is a troll all, nothing to see here. Darn, even got a blue to bite.
As long as people are having fun, I don't care if they are better players or not. If I am doing things in a guild..Yes I care, because I want our guild to become stronger and do the content needed. That means giving 110 percent. However, people out in the world, or LFR..anything really. I don't care if they are good, I don't care if they are great. If they are having fun..more power to them. I won't let their skill level upset me, or ruin my fun.

^If more poeple had mindset like this. The community would be so much better.

I more or less agree with this mentality. It would be great if everyone were passive about things, particularly people making mistakes.

The problem with that though is that... it's not realistic. The more popular something is, the more people will go to it. The more people there are, the more varied the gaming skills present are. When that majority, who is used to single-player gaming (maybe co-op or vs), joins a game where content is designed to be done with others, they'll start feeling like there's something "wrong". The devs, who want to appease people, begin changing things to make it easier.

Now how is this a bad thing? Well, it's really not evil or anything. It's a subjective bad. It's good for those who are looking for said ease, or who don't really care, but those who were already there... with the intended mentality to play, will no longer have what they wanted. Due to those changes, people don't want to group or socialize. "Wanna help me kill this elite?" "Just do a different quest noob". So what happens? Blizzard removes the elite status of pretty much every mob, making things far easier to do.

Another "bad" thing about this? It removes a lot of the immersion that the game had. That mob that I killed in like 2sec solo was the reason why this town was almost destroyed? LOL nubz. There are a lot of changes done in light of passive acceptance. Good and bad, but it's never JUST one or the other. It really depends on who the developers are listening to and how far they take changes.
Join a guild and have good players teach you how to be better. Wow is a social game; you won't get anywhere without talking to people.

I started in BC and made a pally as prot/holy without ANY clue as to how half my stuff worked or what talents to take. A person in the guild I joined had a pally and helped me spec, taught me a few things about rotations, and basically had me pay attention to stuff. Any time I had questions, I would ask people. I started pvping as holy in BC, so I asked people who pvp'ed what they use and how they play. I think the social aspect of WoW is greatly diminished and I think thats bad. Blizzard shouldn't be teaching us, we should be teaching each other.
It's really best not to do the armory-flaming thing, especially because all too often it's just an ad hominem.

It's also though, because no matter who you are, there's somebody who can find some reason to attack you because of your armory... but that's not really constructive.
It's really best not to do the armory-flaming thing, especially because all too often it's just an ad hominem.

It's also though, because no matter who you are, there's somebody who can find some reason to attack you because of your armory... but that's not really constructive.

Meh, I exposed the troll though, so I'm happy.

Oh, were you talking to him. *cute smile/full of teeth*

He really is a troll all, nothing to see here. Darn, even got a blue to bite.

Looks like you're right. That or he has some really built up anger and hostility he needs to let loose. Fell for it also :(
Oh, were you talking to him. *cute smile/full of teeth*

I'm saying in general, armory flaming tends to go back and forth as people look at each other's. It's just not a good route to go down for everyone involved.
I just don't see how expressing contempt for people who aren't even responsible for what you're critiquing contributes to the point you're trying to make.

It doesn't which is why he lost all credibility as soon as he did.

Shuku you have ignored every piece of good advice given to you in this thread, which can only lead me to believe you are either trolling or are far to stupid to recognize common sense when it is given, or both.

WoW is not designed to be a teaching tool, or an avenue of personal improvement. It is not intended for use as a source of self esteem.

...Most games are supposed to give you challenges you overcome to feel good about beating them. If you don't feel good playing games why are you playing them?

I don't get this argument.

Also; A game based entirely off grouping with other players should indeed be teaching it's players how to play properly. MMO's have a different air and stigma to them than single player games; I know it sounds elitist as hell but the past week I've had to teach more players how to play their class at max level in challenge modes than I have in the year and I'm frankly tired of it when the solution can lie in Blizzard.

A miniature tutorial in game on key-binding and class quests that teach you basics is more than enough.
Anything more comes down to if the player wants to up their game or not.

I don't get your argument. First guy you were responding too had it right...a game has two fun and make money for the company. Everything else is secondary to those goals. Ignore it, smirk at it do whatever...doesn't change the truth.

Feeling good about a game doesn't have anything to do with self-esteem. You can be happy and its not a measure of your self esteem at all. I play all types of games...including shooters...when I'm blowing people away with a rocket launcher and watching body parts fly - I'm enjoying myself because the game is fun to me, I'm not thinking at all about self esteem, you think I have good esteem about blowing up people in computer game? (tip: the answer is no, no I don't).

Honestly I think the most significant problem today in terms of games anyway, is today's breed of gamer simply don't know WTF it is that they want! They are never satisfied, they are endless complainers.

WoW has pretty much already proved that point - if you were here since the start...I mean back then raiding was very challenging, in fact so much so that VERY few people ever saw end game....people cried for more accessibility, Blizzard gave it to its funny because I feel all the folks crying for challenge in the game were the people before earlier in the game crying that it was too hard.

People cried for more options in the early days of wow, so over time new classes , races, bgs, arenas, etc. were all gradually released and added to the game. BAM! Here we are today...look through the forums...go for it right now....look at the level of !@#$% and moan people have...everyone's complaining about the content and everything blizzard does is just never good enough.

Now I know its a forgone conclusion I've earned myself the "apologist" title with this view point, but ahh if you only knew me -- I really don't care much about peer pressure or what others think when I stand by what I'm saying....never did...even as a kid..never gave a damn about peer pressure.

All that aside, there's things I hate about this game from time to time and there's stupid stuff (IMO anyway) that blizzard does...but the overall game and direction I usually can understand why or what blizzard is doing something for and I largely agree with them.

For instance I think accessibility is great. The fact that more serious raiders AND people that just pop in and out of the game on a whim can BOTH enjoy raid content now...that's fantastic, is what games are supposed to be about -- fun and allowing all to partake.

That's what I think...and I got to tell you - I don't know how blizzard folks stay sane and focused....because they can just never do right.

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