Selfless Healer PTR

Paladin
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9397370311

So a little while back I said "Wouldn' it be great if Judgment generated Holy power?" and got B-smacked about how dumb of an idea it was, but then this popped up.

For clarity:

Retribution and Protection-specced Paladins will continue to generate one charge of Holy Power when casting Judgement, regardless of talent choice. Selfless Healer does not alter that.

Holy-specced Paladins who spec into Selfless Healer will now generate one charge of Holy Power from Judgement. It will not generate that charge if they choose a different talent.

Hope that clears things up. As per usual, anything on the PTR is subject to change.


Will this have the potential to be stronger than nerfed/OG EF? Will this open up doors for a Crit (and maybe Haste) heavy build? So the potential combo would be build holy power as usual with HS/Judge on cd, hit the tank with the FoL with 2-3 stacks with a potential Crit for the absorb and another HP.

I mean this looks like a return to form for Pally as Tank Healer with AOE burst potential? Or am I gonna get B-smacked again?

P.S. This is also based on if HR still being affected along with FoL with Selfless Healer.
I did a little testing yesterday and with little haste i was able to stack 3 HoPo in 4 sec at most. If you go a haste heavy build you can get the cd of judgment and shock down to 5 sec. Which is what people are likely to aim for. Not sure if it was me or not but it didn't seem like the Holy Insight change has gone live on the ptr yet as LoD is still hitting for the same exact amount on live as it is the ptr.

It certainly makes SH much more attractive but pvp tears will surely get this changed before 5.4.

I don't think it would make paladins anymore of a tank healer than they already are. But there is a lot of single target burst potential with 3 stacks of SH and WoG being cast every 5 sec or so. Still too early to tell.

They still need to give GotAK some love. Change is not enough and 5 min on CD is silly.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9397370311

So a little while back I said "Wouldn' it be great if Judgment generated Holy power?" and got B-smacked about how dumb of an idea it was, but then this popped up.

For clarity:

Retribution and Protection-specced Paladins will continue to generate one charge of Holy Power when casting Judgement, regardless of talent choice. Selfless Healer does not alter that.

Holy-specced Paladins who spec into Selfless Healer will now generate one charge of Holy Power from Judgement. It will not generate that charge if they choose a different talent.

Hope that clears things up. As per usual, anything on the PTR is subject to change.


Will this have the potential to be stronger than nerfed/OG EF? Will this open up doors for a Crit (and maybe Haste) heavy build? So the potential combo would be build holy power as usual with HS/Judge on cd, hit the tank with the FoL with 2-3 stacks with a potential Crit for the absorb and another HP.

I mean this looks like a return to form for Pally as Tank Healer with AOE burst potential? Or am I gonna get B-smacked again?

P.S. This is also based on if HR still being affected along with FoL with Selfless Healer.


You weren't B-smacked for the Judgement generating HoPo, it was because you suggested an either/or, combined with a mana cost increase.

Judgement's cooldown (as compared to CS) combined with it's non-healing potential made it a sub-optimal choice. It does have better mana conservation benefits (being less than half the cost of CS), and now that you'll be able to get HoPo from both, it's viable.

The issue with Selfless is it's comparability with EF, and it's throughput potential. As long as Selfless has a timer tied to it, it has issues. DP procs create an issue where you may go 1-8 procs and GCD's. Juggling procs is already something we have to do, and adding in another just complicates gameplay.

With the new mechanic, it's better but better on one talent we weren't using (as Holy), doesn't counteract the nerf to the other talent in the tier, and the changes to Plea & Insight. Although I agree the healer debuff needed to go away, I don't think the glyph needed to (enhanced mana regen for a cast time). Combined with the SoI nerf, we become significantly more tied to Spirit.

Yes, Judgement will be a cheaper HoPo generator when we're running on fumes, but we don't have SoI/Plea to boost the mana needed to get those casts. For someone like me, that is prolly 30-40% of a mana bar over the course of a fight. Can you afford to give up 120k mana?
So Holy Stat Priority in 5.4 would be like this? Haste>Spirit>Mastery?? and Selfless>EF??

Right now in 5.3 I see alot of people staking Mastery like crazy.
But next pacht Mastery dont apply to Eternal Flame DOT effect so, Mastery staking next pacht dont look so optimal.
So Holy Stat Priority in 5.4 would be like this? Haste>Spirit>Mastery?? and Selfless>EF??

Right now in 5.3 I see alot of people staking Mastery like crazy.
But next pacht Mastery dont apply to Eternal Flame DOT effect so, Mastery staking next pacht dont look so optimal.


More likely Spirit > Mastery = Crit > Haste. Selfless = ~ = EF (is the goal).

Mastery is an amazing throughput stat, not just because it extends overheal protection, but because it adds longevity to mana. Crit is mathematically the same as Mastery, however it relies on real damage being taken. Haste, as of right now only adds to EF ticks, and increases mana consumption by allowing us to cast more over the same amount of time.

It doesn't offer snipe protection, since we are still running 2~ second heals.

Mastery is still the most powerful stat overall, because we will just find another way to blanket key members of the raid. Crit for raw healing. Spirit because they are nerfing all our other mana regen abilities.
Damn Deadsecsi, always running a clinic.

I mentioned haste only as a tool to lower the GCD. Since SoI is an issue should haste still be low priority because we're basically burning mana quicker for less return compared to Mastery/Crit?

Will running Holy Avenger lead to a proc circus also?
Damn Deadsecsi, always running a clinic.

I mentioned haste only as a tool to lower the GCD. Since SoI is an issue should haste still be low priority because we're basically burning mana quicker for less return compared to Mastery/Crit?

Will running Holy Avenger lead to a proc circus also?


Although lowering the GCD would be nice... how much haste would it take to actually make it worthwhile? And for what effects?

I'd hazard that right now most of our effects have longer cast times than the GCD. Haste is nice for those, but far from essential. Our instants (HoPo spells) have the reverse problem. In theory we shouldn't be "spamming" those, as you can only sequence 2 without a DP proc (which has to be talented). Since it relies on procs, they are "unreliable" except during CD.

The bolded is a good way to phrase it. Right now the stats are unevenly weighted, but let's assume that 1% haste = 1% crit/mastery (they're not, haste costs more point for point).

Using an extreme example 40% haste or 40% mastery.

100 healing over 2 seconds (arbitrary number)
Haste becomes 100 healing every 1.2 seconds (not accounting for the GCD)
Mastery becomes 140 healing every 2 seconds (I'm leaving the 10% base mastery out atm)

1.2 x 10 casts (12 seconds) = 1000 healing
2 x 6 casts (12 seconds) = 840 healing

So yes, the base healing over a given time is higher for haste. However you mana consumption is almost double (twice as many casts).

This is overly simplistic math, but it's only designed to highlight the issue.

I think of it like driving a car. If I go faster, sure I get there sooner, but I burn more gas than it's worth to do so.

Right now Haste has an "optimal speed" (usually at breakpoints for EF ticks), whereas more Crit & Haste are "always" good.
Using an extreme example 40% haste or 40% mastery.

100 healing over 2 seconds (arbitrary number)
Haste becomes 100 healing every 1.2 seconds (not accounting for the GCD)
Mastery becomes 140 healing every 2 seconds (I'm leaving the 10% base mastery out atm)

1.2 x 10 casts (12 seconds) = 1000 healing
2 x 6 casts (12 seconds) = 840 healing
Actually, you flubbed your haste numbers. 40% haste would turn it into 100 healing over ~1.43 seconds, not 1.2 seconds (40% haste isn't - 40% cast time, it's cast time divided by 1.4). 40% haste means you can cast 40% more heals in the same time period. So your numbers above would be 840 for both mastery and haste (though that'd include a partial cast for haste, since you undoubtedly picked 12 seconds because it worked out even for your numbers).
Using an extreme example 40% haste or 40% mastery.

100 healing over 2 seconds (arbitrary number)
Haste becomes 100 healing every 1.2 seconds (not accounting for the GCD)
Mastery becomes 140 healing every 2 seconds (I'm leaving the 10% base mastery out atm)

1.2 x 10 casts (12 seconds) = 1000 healing
2 x 6 casts (12 seconds) = 840 healing
Actually, you flubbed your haste numbers. 40% haste would turn it into 100 healing over ~1.43 seconds, not 1.2 seconds (40% haste isn't - 40% cast time, it's cast time divided by 1.4). 40% haste means you can cast 40% more heals in the same time period. So your numbers above would be 840 for both mastery and haste (though that'd include a partial cast for haste, since you undoubtedly picked 12 seconds because it worked out even for your numbers).


Thank you. I do that a lot when I'm trying to do quick math.

1.43 x 10 casts (14.3 sec) - 1000 Healing
2 x 7 casts (14 sec) - 980 healing

So for a similar amount of healing, you are still paying more for it.
3 casts worth, which for us is 30-60k mana (again quick math)
From what I have done on ptr it takes 8500ish haste(that is with seal of insight active) to drop the cd of Holy Shock and Judgment to 5 seconds and Crusader Strike to 3.75.

As far as I know the 5% haste buff does not effect the cd on HS and Judge so you will need to get around 32-33% haste to get the cd to 5secs

For Selfless Healer I can see this being very useful or even better than old EF in a way just cause it uses very low mana cost(If any at all). You can do this rotation on the move at all times --> Judge > LoD > HS > LoD > Judge > LoD > HS > LoD > Judge > then use your 3 Stack SH on FoL, DL, or HR all on the move. Plus the LoD can be switched out for Word of Glory. This doesn't even require the haste build. So even better shields with stacked mastery or maybe even a mastery/crit build

From my testing with 33% haste and 34% mastery with 10-11k combat regen(yes i reforged out of spirit)It provides pretty much 3-5k(6-10k crit) shields on 6 targets for every 1 Holy Power LoD and then can use HR for bigger shield.

Also imagine the Divine Purpose talent possibly getting a lot more procs with the massive LoD/WoG spam

Don't forget how well this would work with the Tier 16 set 2 bonus as well making our HS critical give our HR and DL 25% more power

I think this is gonna get SH nerfed or changed again. It is getting to the point now where our mastery needs to be changed just because everything we find good with a talent or spell they are gonna nerf something that is gonna break Mastery: Illuminated Healing or our healing in general. Our mastery is there to spam shields and that is something Blizz is not liking.

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