Dodge and Parry don't actually have a "feel"

You're not respectful when you call me things like "kid" (I'm 34 years old...) and say I'm some kind of paranoid raging lunatic.
First off, I didn't call anyone a kid, I said that you're acting like a kid. There is a difference, one is demeaning to a person and the other is demeaning to the way they're acting. If you take offense to how I referred to your words and actions, then I'm sorry. Would you prefer I instead make the analogy of a paranoid conspiracy theorist who constantly thinks that the government is out to get them? Same thing really. Do you deny that you (and others) have made posts trying to counter-argue the change by exaggerating a claim that blizz wants you to stack avoidance? Do you deny that this is a gross exaggeration of what they're actually trying to do? Again, either you're scared/paranoid and fighting against something that isn't even real, or you're making strawmen. And in either case it's posts like those that prevent discussion, because they don't address what's really happening.

But if you're going to stop making strawmen and/or overreacting and actually speak to the changes being made, then sure I can have a discussion over that.

Sigh. Read what I wrote again.

I can't discuss with you if you nitpick like others do. GC with CS/HotW/Judgement is an RNG proc over a controlled rotation. GC with Dodge/parry is an RNG proc over an RNG proc. See the difference ?
There is no difference. RNG is RNG is RNG. There is no significant difference between a proc on a proc vs a proc on an ability. In either case GC will still reduce to a proc with some X% chance to occur every Y seconds. The change may result in GC having a higher or lower proc rate than it does now, but it's still no different AT ALL than if they simply raised or lowered the proc rate while letting it continue to proc from the same things it currently does.

In the end it's still an uncontrolled and unpredictable event, and is no more or less "fun" than it's current or past forms.

Now can we get back to discussing the actual topic rather than the GC change ? The "feel of Dodge/Parry" ? Ok with you ? We done with insults and attacks now ?
Except that's not the real purpose of this topic. It's abundantly clear that the OP made the first post under the misguided belief that Blizz is "out to get" haste-stacking paladins and make them stack avoidance instead. His analogy is quite clear, he thinks that blizz is out to break haste just as a bull would a china shop. All he's doing is throwing a fit because he thinks that blizz is trying to change the way we gear, when that's completely not the case.

As to my opinion on the "feel" of avoidance, I don't know, I don't think it "feels" that bad really. I mean when a boss uses a big attack and I see a dodge pops up I do get a certain feeling of satisfaction from it. Sure I can't control it or make it happen when I need it to, but that just makes it feel better when it does happen. That's the nature of RNG: getting lucky "feels" good, and conversely getting unlucky "feels" bad. RNG isn't some evil terrible thing, nor is it inherently boring. On the contrary it actually keeps things from getting boring. There is a such thing as too much RNG of course, but there's also such thing as too little.

Though I still feel that this topic is ultimately irrelevant. It doesn't matter how avoidance "feels". The change is nothing more than a short-term change to help make avoidance gear less-worthless until the next expansion where there'll likely be a large overhaul that either changes the way tank gear it itemized or changes the way avoidance stats work to try to make them more engaging.
07/18/2013 06:28 AMPosted by Carbuncle
The stat is probably going away next expansion.

A lot of people seem to be predicting that, but when you look at what Blizzard is actually doing, it looks like they intend to keep dodge/parry/block as stats.

Passive tanking is out-dated, not fun, and quite useless for raiding.

Fun is subjective, and uselessness has a lot to do with encounter design (and somewhat with decisions made by the devs, like how much dodge rating it takes to get 1% more dodge -- this could be relatively better next expansion).

The importance of TDR is low this expansion because of the relative lack of mana constraints and massive spike damage all over the place (and you can't use avoidance to survive spike damage because then you die X% of the time), but those are encounter design decisions that could be revisited or at least moderated in the next expansion.
A lot of people seem to be predicting that, but when you look at what Blizzard is actually doing, it looks like they intend to keep dodge/parry/block as stats.
Lore's post said that they intend to keep the "idea" of tanking stats around, but he didn't specifically say dodge and parry. He also said that one idea they're considering is the possibility of combining dodge and parry into a single stat, which at the very least would eliminate the possibility of double-avoidance items, which cuts out the worst of the worst.

They could also go the route they did with block and roll avoidance into another stat(s). Like they *could* just go full dps gear on us and make haste contribute to dodge and crit contribute to parry, in addition to what they currently do (though I think that'd be a rather boring way to do it). Another option is they could go the pvp-route and make avoidance not count towards an items' stat budget and are just free extras on the tank items, that way tank gear is still "better" (albeit in a passive way) than dps items, though that has the issue where dps could take those items at no cost. Maybe make tank items have less str in favor of more secondary stats (in addition to free avoidance), as that should make them less ideal (but still viable) for dps without hurting their value for tanks.

Or they could create tanking mechanics that scale with avoidance stats (not necessarily just things that proc off avoided attacks, but where more avoidance actually improves the mechanic). For example, what if the SotR buff lasted longer based on your parry rating (again, just an example). Or similar things that make them fit into the active mitigation style.

Overall I do agree that avoidance as a concept should stay in the game, for the same reasons that we have passively higher stamina, armor and damage reduction than non-tanks. It just makes sense for tanks to be passively harder to kill just be being tanks, even if the bulk of our survival comes from active sources. Not to mention the huge ramifications in both pve and pvp if they were to try to remove avoidance altogether.
This discussion was so good until pancake went berserk here *sigh*. The topic is not the GC change or what is the best or better secondary for Paladins, it's the feel of Avoidance in the game.

Go back and read the posts in context and you'll notice the only over reaction and "sky is falling " type posts have been your own. Until then please don't reply to me if all you're going to do is snap at misrepresentations of my posts. It's really hard to take you seriously when you claim I said and did things I haven't done.

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