Flex Raidings Poison Pill

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Flex raiding is probably one of the best ideals Blizzard has come up with. However, at the same time they are rolling it out they are also coming out with the dagger that will aim straight at its heart.

Proving Grounds.

Yes Proving Grounds, a very good ideal in and of itself but it will or may become the cancer that kills flex raiding depending how it is implemented.

Why? You ask.

Because you are graded "Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Endless". There is nothing wrong with the grading system except for the fact your grade will be out there for everyone to see.

Now I personally have no problem with the grading system, the problem is Flex mode is meant to encourage pugging and the grading system will work against it. Again I think most players should know how to play their spec but if everyone can see your grade who do you think the people trying to put together a Flex Raid will ask for.

Bronze = Not just no but ____ no.
Silver = Over my dead body.
Gold = Maybe, but only if I know you.

Endless = Ding, Ding, Ding you just answered the $64,000,000 question.

Now once again I believe someone should know the basics of their role and should strive to get better, but the best way to get better is through practice and Flex Raiding will be the best way to get that practice.

Now I am not a part of PTR and have not seen how the system works but Blizzard needs to be very careful about how they implement this.

Maybe the grades you earn should only be seen by the player and a grade of pass (not fail) should be seen by the outside world.

After over 50 years observing human behavior and 12 or more years of observing Homodotnetus behavior I can just about predict what is going to happen.

I hope I am wrong.
itt: bad player is worried more people will be able to see he is bad.


I really wish trolls would learn how to read.
I hope I am wrong.


I suspect you are.

The point of flex raids is that you can invite a variety of people and that there is no reason to exclude anyone. Why would you willingly exclude someone. Their DPS contribution may be low, and they might stand in fire, but the difficulty is easy and having more people will help your DPS.

I'm sure inviting the better players will be a start, but if you're only inviting people who have succeeded at endless, why are you running Flex? You should be in Normal or even Heroic.

Flex isn't only for PuGs, either. It'll help them absolutely, but I think it was primarily geared towards a demographic that has been struggling lately with Normal modes and attendance. It will help friend and family guilds build groups by using pugs. But if they don't have enough to run and are looking for pugs, why would they exclude anyone?

Say they have 7 people on... shucks guys, lets go into trade we can get a few more. 7 people are interested. Now they only need 3, but why would they only take the 4 that have completed endless and not the 3 others that did bronze and silvers - they can just take all 7.
If you are concerned about getting into raids you have three options:

#1. Get better
#2. MAKE YOUR OWN
#3. Find raid leaders like me that don't base your invite on arbitrary standards

Why would you willingly exclude someone. Their DPS contribution may be low, and they might stand in fire, but the difficulty is easy and having more people will help your DPS.


If we're hitting a berserk timer and you don't have a good explanation for your performance (I died to X is not a 'good explanation'), expect to be held responsible.

There's a difference between one guy doing below average and someone who's clearly not ready to contribute.
itt: bad player is worried more people will be able to see he is bad.


This is really all I got out of this too. If you want to look like a good player that is ready and skilled to raid.... get gold on the proving grounds. If not, run your own flex raids and accept whoever you want.

This is really no different than ilevel already, its just that proving grounds should, in theory, be based on at least some level of skill.

Can you out-gear proving grounds or does it scale you to a specific point? I haven't looked into them much...
But pugging already has a grading system. It's called ilvl.

I sincerely hope that people do use the Proving Grounds as the basis for inviting, because despite the inherent flaws, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than ilvl.
If you are concerned about getting into raids you have three options:

#1. Get better
#2. MAKE YOUR OWN
#3. Find raid leaders like me that don't base your invite on arbitrary standards
That's somehow different than it is now, with requiring the Ahead of the Curve achievement for a ToT pug (not that there's a ToT pug on this server but still), or asking for 515(520)+ for Heroic Scenarios?
Can you out-gear proving grounds or does it scale you to a specific point? I haven't looked into them much...


It scales you, and from the bit of it I tried on the PTR, the healer one is a pretty fun test. If you don't know how to manage mana, you fall OOM about 2/3 of the way through Silver and pretty early on in Gold.
or asking for 515(520)+ for Heroic Scenarios?


The best part about these is I got in and the group leader and his pal stood in not one, not two, but three one-shot mechanics before I left <3
Oh, and this will all depend on how hard flex actually is. I'm not sure I really care where it falls, but the harder it is, the more requirements you will see coming from raid leaders. If the requires on most PUGs are too high for some casual gamers, perhaps Blizz can/should lower the raid difficulty a bit.

07/19/2013 10:06 AMPosted by Tristarae
Can you out-gear proving grounds or does it scale you to a specific point? I haven't looked into them much...


It scales you, and from the bit of it I tried on the PTR, the healer one is a pretty fun test. If you don't know how to manage mana, you fall OOM about 2/3 of the way through Silver and pretty early on in Gold.


This makes me so happy to see. :)
The best part about these is I got in and the group leader and his pal stood in not one, not two, but three one-shot mechanics before I left <3


Was it on Crypt because I love watching people die to that one.
Let me restate, I am not worried about me, I have no problem showing my grades to the rest of the world. It is the newer players or the players striving to get better but not there yet.

If you want to attack me fine, I have Teflon skin, but this is not about me.

It is a about a possible problem that will or may arise.
Can you out-gear proving grounds or does it scale you to a specific point? I haven't looked into them much...


They scale down your gear like challenge modes.

#2. MAKE YOUR OWN


Not everyone is comfortable/capable of being a raid leader.

itt: bad player is worried more people will be able to see he is bad.


And people like this need to be boiled in oil. THIS is the CANCER of the community. It's not LFD, it's not LFR... It's people like this.
This makes me so happy to see. :)


Yeah, I went into the PTR, but I didn't feel like setting up my full UI because I didn't think I needed it. Admittedly, I was cocky because Silver kicked my !@#. I then went through the trouble of setting up my full set of macros and changed up the raid frames to make it past Gold.

I can't speak to the Tank or DPS challenges, but the Healer one is fun and challenging. :) I suspect that Gold will be the standard for most things, and then Endless will just be about bragging rights.
It is the newer players or the players striving to get better but not there yet.


And, even if what you say comes to pass, I'm not seeing the problem here at all. If a newer person is declined entry to a flex raid due to this grading system, they have multiple options. Most importantly, they have a very clear progression goal: master their character to the point they get a good grade on proving grounds.

And its not even gear related (if it scales, as is explained above it does). Its a very clear way to say "I'm at least decent at my character, here is proof".

IMO, this is the BEST thing new/casual players could ask for. No more jumping through gear score hoops to 'prove' you are competant.
What will really happen is a bunch of raiders and raiding guilds will utilize Flex raiding to prevent the playerbase from experiencing a tier of content. That's what will happen. I also know the boards will be flooded with how Flex has failed because raiders will use it to prevent the rest of the playerbase from getting into that content.

It's like the raiders refuse to learn their lesson. Now that LFR is out and people are getting to see the raid content, they aren't needed to tell the world about the the awesome raid content--we're all able to see it on different levels.

The era of the "Cheerleader Guilds" is dead. There, I've said it. LFR killed it. It's been dead since MoP, when LFR really took off (I know it hit during Cata, but it's best not to bring up that expansion). What I mean by this concept is there is a core raid group and a bunch of "cheerleaders" whose sole purpose is to support the core raid team. If one of the cheerleaders talks about wanting to be in the raid group, talks of kicking them out of the guild are heard.

At least there is still LFR.
What will really happen is a bunch of raiders and raiding guilds will utilize Flex raiding to prevent the playerbase from experiencing a tier of content. That's what will happen. I also know the boards will be flooded with how Flex has failed because raiders will use it to prevent the rest of the playerbase from getting into that content.

It's like the raiders refuse to learn their lesson. Now that LFR is out and people are getting to see the raid content, they aren't needed to tell the world about it.

The era of the "Cheerleader Guilds" is dead. It's been dead since MoP, when LFR really took off (I know it hit during Cata, but it's best not to bring up that expansion). What I mean by this concept is there is a core raid group and a bunch of "cheerleaders" whose sole purpose is to support the core raid team. If one of the cheerleaders talks about wanting to be in the raid group, talks of kicking them out of the guild are heard.

At least there is still LFR.


very good points.
Let me restate, I am not worried about me, I have no problem showing my grades to the rest of the world. It is the newer players or the players striving to get better but not there yet.


Look, here's the fun part. The community has expectations of play. Some people have higher expectations of others.

Giving people the option of having an AI test you and grade your efforts is a whole lot nicer than someone volunteering LOL WTF TANK WHY U IN GREEENS. Someone's going to tell them eventually, and Blizzard can do it much more pleasantly than a lot of players will.

Proving grounds are the solution, not the problem. You get an objective, non-emotional score that tells you how well you're doing.

Not everyone is comfortable/capable of being a raid leader.


Being able to talk confidently to a bunch of strangers is a skill that'll help you in WoW and life. WoW's actually a great place to practice since you never have to see any of them again or worry about them seeing you fidgeting. Not everyone can do it but it'll benefit you to try.

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