Flex Raidings Poison Pill

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BTW I refuse point blank to "prove" anything to you or to anyone else. Thats the gist of this, "prove you know your class"..I already do, and I see no reason to "sit an exam" to "qualify" or "meet standards" or "be judged competent".


Holy Christ how do people even stand you? Do you just flip out when when even questions your performance in the slightest? Do you even live in the real world where giving and receiving feedback is part of life?

You're part of a virtual society with people other than yourself. Some of those people have standards for success. Welcome to reality.
Holy Christ how do people even stand you? Do you just flip out when when even questions your performance in the slightest? Do you even live in the real world where giving and receiving feedback is part of life?


Mate , trust me, this video game is a cakewalk next to the level of competence and compliance in my old job.

Weekly assessments. Exams. Tests. Auditing of my work on a daily basis. Yearly repeated police background checks. Pop quizzes. Ongoing training. Mandatory modules on my work and on changes to the industry. Updates on legislation and company policy that had to be signed off on and then quizzed on. Certification that took close to eighteen months with a high passmark. Company policy refreshers. Managerial overview each week.

And that wasnt just me..that was everyone..

Wanna take a guess as to why I dont want to do that garbage anymore?

"Did I live in the real world"...mate, I aint HAL 9000, and there is a real person at the other end of this keyboard.

As for the rest, what I have done and my abilities as far as I am concerned are proof I am competent and know my class, and I dont need to take "an exam" to prove it.

Thats what achievements are for. Or are you now going to tell me they are worthless?
My call?

I give it two weeks after 5.4 hits that we will see pugs expecting any and all to have PG at gold level min, massively overgear instance, and for any who dont have it to be told "ur bad" and sneered at and abused.

PG at Gold will be considered "mandatory" for all regardless.


Not intending to be snide, but if you don't like being held to the standards of others you can always create your own group and decide who can join. I think you'll find that after some difficulty there are good reasons why people have learned to set some standards and requirements, not that all of them are necessarily accurate or needed. But in creating your group and making good judgment calls on what those can be, you could create a very popular, fun, successful and regularly occurring PUG.
Bashiok: All I will say in reply is that the "standards" set at times are ridiculous bordering on the insane.

As far as standards and requirements...isnt that what achievements are for? If I or anyone else has the achieve then why need to do the Grounds as well?

Kinda defeats the purpose?
As for the rest, what I have done and my abilities as far as I am concerned are proof I am competent and know my class, and I dont need to take "an exam" to prove it.

Thats what achievements are for. Or are you now going to tell me they are worthless?


Everything counts, maybe some people value achieves, some don't. IMO certain time limited achieves like [I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I Am] are fairly valuable, but not everything. You only add more evidence for your abilities by doing well in the proving grounds. And in the end as Bashiok said it's pretty much all up to the person making the PuG anyway. That could be you if you desire, but don't expect Blizzard to try and change how people are.
IMO its like blizz is adding this so players can be singled out by elitists jerks. Just saying we already have enough add ons to get judged by now we gotta contend with this . To me this feels about the same as when ghostcrawler tried to convince players that harder cata heroic dungeons were the right thing . Then the sub losses started and he had to take back what he said and fix it . You think the community is bad now , wait until this gets released .
I don't think people are going to use proving grounds as the end-all be-all measuring stick for CMs. It'll still probably be linking achievements related to the instance itself.

However, if Flex Mode is really easy like LFR, and difficulty gets slightly easier the closer to 25 you get, I don't see raid leaders being that picky either. Throwing a bone to pugs is a good thing for server communities, like we had in Wrath. Pugs might not be the intent of the system but I think there's an unfilled niche there: pug 25 man raiding. Nearly every pug here is 10 man and I think GC himself said the vast majority of 25 man guilds set out to do heroics, so there's a big difficulty gap there b/w LFR and Heroics. Flex could fill that.
Bashiok: All I will say in reply is that the "standards" set at times are ridiculous bordering on the insane.

As far as standards and requirements...isnt that what achievements are for? If I or anyone else has the achieve then why need to do the Grounds as well?

Kinda defeats the purpose?


I don't disagree that people tend to set requirements far and above what are required, but that may also be due to those people having bad experiences. If they seem unreasonable for what you believe is necessary for success there's a straight forward way to do something about it.

You're asking me why in a hypothetical situation people are asking you for Proving Ground medal achievements in addition to raid achievements? That's an assumption, first off, although probably a correct one. Well, one shows you downed a boss, which has no context for what you contributed. Maybe you had a guild carry you or went AFK? Proving Grounds show some level of ability, devoid of other factors outside of your own.
Bashiok: do you agree with the premise that not doing the Grounds means you "are not competent" as has been posted here?
Anyway, it seems you're implying Proving Grounds will be bad for Flex because players will have to show ability/competence to raid leaders to join PUGs, and... I don't know that that's a bad thing, or much different than showing various raid achievements. And actually it may be better for people than raid achievements because there's context for how it was earned. If someone is a bit less skilled, they can keep at Proving Grounds and getting better, that's a benefit for them and the people they're going to group with.


Bash, I don't mean to be insincere - but is the proving grounds actually going to prove anything worthwhile? I one shot my way to the last three bosses of brawlers guild. I think I died once before that to a DC. And even if I am marginally mistaken, you see the posts of trouble people have with hexos - let alone pushing the ah'rune with 2-3 angels at the same time and staying alive. Frankly, I don't see proving grounds being that hard. I don't see it developing a significant, or even modest, level of player skill.

Proving Grounds needs to not be something you do once, it needs to be something you do every day. Think of it more like a yoga 'asa'; it's a posture, a form, that trains the body to be in a way. In yoga, 'asa's are centered and balanced, and develop flow and connectedness. This is how one should play. Practice a form to train the body; sitting in a chair is an 'asa' - it trains the body to be in a way (perhaps a poor way). Are proving grounds a way to train the player to be in a way?

Proving grounds, really should be training grounds, and be done frequently to develop familiarity, coordination, and skill. How do you begin to take hundreds of fights, and adaptations to playstyle from those encounters and in brevity, teach that to someone? The only way I could do it in real life is with a principles based construct, based on ideas that abstract the learning.
Bashiok: do you agree with the premise that not doing the Grounds means you "are not competent" as has been posted here?


No one has posted as such. It's rather that competency is unknown, if that was your measuring stick.
Hey, Bashiok: just want to say thanks for doing poster responses like this. Direct interaction can mean a lot, even when the posters you're talking to don't agree with you. ;)
The point of flex raids is that you can invite a variety of people and that there is no reason to exclude anyone. Why would you willingly exclude someone. Their DPS contribution may be low, and they might stand in fire, but the difficulty is easy and having more people will help your DPS.


I think yourself and the original poster completely blocked out Wrath and the whole gearscore thing.

People tend to grade more on your gear than they do actual ability- so the Proving grounds might actually be a good thing for people that DO try to consider ability above gear.

People that want to base someone's merit on gear alone may be the one's being laughed at in trade. Myself, I wouldn't mind actually measuring someone's worth off actual ability and proving grounds would help with that.

Also, the people with actual brains in their head aren't going to expect people to have cleared the normal mode before they have the flex mode (I hope not anyways). That would defeat the whole purpose.
I'm curious what people will think about someone like me, I have no desire whatsoever to do proving grounds, just as after one the challenge mode I did, I had no desire to do one again. Will I be judged as someone who doesn't know their class by people without them even looking at my raiding background? This does make me curious because somehow I doubt I'll be the only person who has no desire to do this optional thing.


No, I would imagine not. People are predicating this on the somewhat questionable idea that all of a sudden Proving Ground rating will be the only thing that matters. That's highly unlikely. Many pug leaders--if they have any brains at all--will probably still want to know your raid achievements; if you don't have that then it's likely you'll be asked about your proving ground rating or achievement.

The pug leader you want to roll with will value one much more highly than the other, and I don't mean the proving ground rating.
Rank 10 in the Brawler's Guild. I wonder how that will translate into the Proving Grounds. Hm.


Exactly it's optional content. It will be nice to have if you want something to vouch for your abilities, but if you have the appropriate gear and experience it won't matter at all. Also by the same token, if your bad I'm sure it will show in much more than just the Proving Grounds.
I hope I am wrong.

Rest easy friend, you are.
Bashiok: do you agree with the premise that not doing the Grounds means you "are not competent" as has been posted here?


I would say given how easy it is to access it, its a matter of either A) not caring about doing it, B) not knowing about it at all or C) actually genuinely being unable to do it.

If A) or B), that person is possibly not the kind of person you want on your run because their attitude/knowledge is just not up to snuff and will cause issues. I'd actually have less issue with C) simply because it could be a coachable problem that can be overcome or carried without them being toxic.

But Proving Grounds as they currently stand are too easy to really have me look at them as a measuring stick. I'll do what I always do: check gearing and itemization and progress. If a person doesn't know how to build themselves and/or has progressed terribly, I'll likely pass them over for someone that is better.

Competence is only part of it. You're not going to get to play "gotcha" with a Blue by making some wild conjecture. If you can't do Proving Grounds as they currently are, you seriously do have weaknesses that need overcoming and you shouldn't be expecting much carrying on even casual raiding.
Bashiok: do you agree with the premise that not doing the Grounds means you "are not competent" as has been posted here?


Of course not, but that has nothing to do with what individual raid leaders may or may not ask for.

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