Flex Raidings Poison Pill

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If a requirement for Proving Ground medals means someone can't find Flex pugs... then maybe they should be in LFR


Winnar.
07/19/2013 10:32 AMPosted by Erras
If a requirement for Proving Ground medals means someone can't find Flex pugs... then maybe they should be in LFR


Winnar.
After over 50 years observing human behavior and 12 or more years of observing Homodotnetus behavior I can just about predict what is going to happen.
... wait for it ...
itt: bad player is worried more people will be able to see he is bad.
*ding* Damn fine bait you got there, OP. I hope you're working on a repellant spray?

I was recently talked into leveling a holy priest, a class and spec I haven't played since the beginning of Cata. I have wished for a scenario that would help me brush up on my skills and here we have the new Proving Grounds.

My concern is if it allows for all iLevels of gear. I don't raid all that much and the Gods of RNG hate me so I don't have a high iLevel.
07/19/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Jadwiga
After over 50 years observing human behavior and 12 or more years of observing Homodotnetus behavior I can just about predict what is going to happen.
... wait for it ...
itt: bad player is worried more people will be able to see he is bad.
*ding* Damn fine bait you got there, OP. I hope you're working on a repellant spray?

I was recently talked into leveling a holy priest, a class and spec I haven't played since the beginning of Cata. I have wished for a scenario that would help me brush up on my skills and here we have the new Proving Grounds.

My concern is if it allows for all iLevels of gear. I don't raid all that much and the Gods of RNG hate me so I don't have a high iLevel.


to my knowledge it's scaled down to 463, but due to the imperfect nature of scaling, certain pieces will provide advantages.
Also, this^. If a requirement for Proving Ground medals means someone can't find Flex pugs... then maybe they should be in LFR. Everybody's going to be able to see SoO if they choose to, no matter the skill level.


Thank goodness for small favors lol.

Also, Tris I'm sorry I've kept missing you. :) I was sick the one night and have been busy trying to get my priest up to par with my new guild.

Have managed to make it 8/12 in ToT normal since joining them though. I'd forgotten how much fun successful normal raiding can be, and how nice it can be when some people don't care if you pull great numbers as long as you can perform the mechanics of the fight correctly. (dispels, etc.)
So even you have no idea what you meant by that, gotcha.


..... Do they not teach what a metaphor is in high school anymore? Because I swear that's all 9th grade English was.

No, she was baiting you and you fell in the sarchasm.


I wasn't even baiting and he fell in anyway o.o
07/19/2013 10:35 AMPosted by Fallanaa
Also, this^. If a requirement for Proving Ground medals means someone can't find Flex pugs... then maybe they should be in LFR. Everybody's going to be able to see SoO if they choose to, no matter the skill level.


Thank goodness for small favors lol.

Also, Tris I'm sorry I've kept missing you. :) I was sick the one night and have been busy trying to get my priest up to par with my new guild.

Have managed to make it 8/12 in ToT normal since joining them though. I'd forgotten how much fun successful normal raiding can be, and how nice it can be when some people don't care if you pull great numbers as long as you can perform the mechanics of the fight correctly. (dispels, etc.)


Congrats on finding a guild you like! That is the most important step, lol. I'm glad you're having a good time in ToT, it's honestly a well-done raid. I'm going to be out of town this weekend, and might not have consistent internet access, but if you still want to practice tanking on your monk, feel free to whisper me at any time.
Stop. Just stop. You're trying to find a reason to qq about two awesome features because you are worried what might happen. All you can do is convince Blizzard to ruin these awesome ideas with terrible changes.
I understand what you are saying OP. But...

At least showing your Gold Proving Ground achieve to get in a raid makes sense.

Now it's show us that you have completed the raid before you can raid with us.

Or...

Show us all your raid gear before you can raid to get raid gear.

Or... it used to be

Your GearScore must be THIS high before you can enter this PUG.

At least with Proving Grounds you can PROVE that you are competent.

Also, gearscore, raid achievs, and iLvl doesn't tell the whole story. Someone could be carried by their guild and have awesome gear. On some servers you can pay gold to get carried through a raid. But that doesn't mean they are competent.
07/19/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Killberry
Flex mode is meant to encourage pugging and the grading system will work against it.


Flex is for guilds and groups of friends to be able to raid in a slightly less demanding situation that scales to a number of players, because for those guilds not everyone shows up every raid night, while also allowing them to avoid LFR or needing to invite PUG people to fill out their group.

We think people putting together PUGs for Flex is totally cool and giving some love to PUG raids is an overall positive for the game, but it's a side-bonus. It's not really an important point to make necessarily, but I just wanted to point it out as you stated your understanding of the intent of Flex so certainly. PUG Flex is cool, just not the primary intent of the system. Somewhat ironically it's mostly to keep guilds from having to invite PUGs to their "Beer League" runs.

It's been common for PUG leaders to ask for achievement links before inviting people for a very long time as a way to test familiarity with an encounter and skill. The achievements they ask for change from raid leader to raid leader, and raid to raid. Proving Grounds certainly isn't going to make that any worse, raid leaders are still going to want some "proof", and it could be possible Proving Grounds actually makes the situation better as you may only need to show a single "class competence" achievement from 5.4 on. "I haven't done some of these fights yet, but I have Gold so I'm sure I can figure it out." That may not be acceptable for all raid leaders, but it at least creates that possibility. Right now there's no way for a raid leader to judge your competence outside of "I killed this dragon." with no context. Maybe you had your friends carry you? With Proving Grounds there is at least the context of your abilities as an individual player.

[retracted] ed: I had listed out the equivalent difficulty of Proving Grounds medals to what types of PvE content it should equal in terms of relative difficulty. PTR testing is ongoing and it's very likely Proving Grounds are under-tuned right now. I don't want people coming back to reference a list as a final intention of difficulty or proof of ability.

Anyway, it seems you're implying Proving Grounds will be bad for Flex because players will have to show ability/competence to raid leaders to join PUGs, and... I don't know that that's a bad thing, or much different than showing various raid achievements. And actually it may be better for people than raid achievements because there's context for how it was earned. If someone is a bit less skilled, they can keep at Proving Grounds and getting better, that's a benefit for them and the people they're going to group with.
What you call a poison pill, I consider a "feature." As Bashiok pointed out, it's one more way to be able to qualify someone as capable or not. If you're not being taken because you can't meet a minimum proving grounds requirement, maybe there's a reason for that?
They have nothing in common and will in no way affect each other in all reality. Flex raiding is about getting gear. Proving grounds is about learning to not stand in the poo on the ground.
Somewhat ironically it's mostly to keep guilds from having to invite PUGs to their "Beer League" runs.


I hope then, for these guilds' sake, that you guys do choose to let Flex scale down to 8 people. I'm in a guild that is doing pretty well in Normal, but our roster is inconsistent because we can consistently get 9 people, and we almost always have a PUG in our 10th spot. F&F guilds that are currently having issues filling their raids probably aren't stuck somewhere between 10 and 25, they're probably <10.
Thank you for the reply Bashiok, knowing where the grades fall is nice to know. I really do like both Flex Raiding and the Ideal of Proving Grounds there just has not been a lot of info on PG.

Again thank you.
Flex raiding is probably one of the best ideals Blizzard has come up with. However, at the same time they are rolling it out they are also coming out with the dagger that will aim straight at its heart.

Proving Grounds.

Yes Proving Grounds, a very good ideal in and of itself but it will or may become the cancer that kills flex raiding depending how it is implemented.

Why? You ask.

Because you are graded "Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Endless". There is nothing wrong with the grading system except for the fact your grade will be out there for everyone to see.

Now I personally have no problem with the grading system, the problem is Flex mode is meant to encourage pugging and the grading system will work against it. Again I think most players should know how to play their spec but if everyone can see your grade who do you think the people trying to put together a Flex Raid will ask for.

Bronze = Not just no but ____ no.
Silver = Over my dead body.
Gold = Maybe, but only if I know you.

Endless = Ding, Ding, Ding you just answered the $64,000,000 question.

Now once again I believe someone should know the basics of their role and should strive to get better, but the best way to get better is through practice and Flex Raiding will be the best way to get that practice.

Now I am not a part of PTR and have not seen how the system works but Blizzard needs to be very careful about how they implement this.

Maybe the grades you earn should only be seen by the player and a grade of pass (not fail) should be seen by the outside world.

After over 50 years observing human behavior and 12 or more years of observing Homodotnetus behavior I can just about predict what is going to happen.

I hope I am wrong.


So you're concerned that people will be choosing you to join their group based on something that is actually a measure of ability rather than a next-to-meaningless measurement like item level? Proving grounds will largely replace item level as a measure of quality, and this is a very good thing, because it actually represents your ability to fulfil your role.

If people don't want to take you to their raids because you've only completed bronze, that's your problem, not theirs. It's not unfair for raid leaders to have standards. If you don't meet their standards, once again, your problem, not theirs.


Very loosely if you can get Bronze in Proving Grounds you're good for Heroic dungeons, if you can get Silver you're good for LFR, and if you can do Gold you're going to probably be able to handle Flex/Normal - if you can get Gold you're probably not a liability to pick up for a Normal.


For Tanks and Healers, maybe.

Can you explain to me how Proving Grounds shows anything about DPS at all?


I watched the video on MMO-champs for DPS Proving Grounds - it appeared to me that as it got harder the DPS had to get higher or the scenario quickly become over run and you lose.

Isn't that the DPS'es job. Do damage fast enough that the group does not become overwhelmed and the healers and tanks don't run out of resources to keep the group alive.

I think the Proving Ground shows that. Is that what you were asking?


Very loosely if you can get Bronze in Proving Grounds you're good for Heroic dungeons, if you can get Silver you're good for LFR, and if you can do Gold you're going to probably be able to handle Flex/Normal - if you can get Gold you're probably not a liability to pick up for a Normal.


For Tanks and Healers, maybe.

Can you explain to me how Proving Grounds shows anything about DPS at all?

Cheers.


If you got Gold then you know enough about your class and were able to do enough damage to successfully kill some things, and that means you're probably competent enough to dip into Flex/Normal.

The intent of Proving Grounds is not to show your epic DPS for Heroic raiding guild recruitment, it's to help players learn new specs, and understand when they have achieved some competency to be a positively contributing member to a group of players.
Hopefully proving grounds is providing not just the diploma, but the education itself. Meaning Proving Grounds will actually improve the situation for pugs by improving the quality level of the player base itself.

Many players who are "bad" are not defective computer users or game players. There are regular people who for whatever reason have not been exposed to content that helped give feedback as to where they stand and what they need to work on. Its not surprising because you can easily level 1-90 while doing 50% or less of your dps output, by never properly gemming or enchanting, and generally never even caring about any game mechanic. Its no wonder some players arrive at the end game with no clue.
That's somehow different than it is now, with requiring the Ahead of the Curve achievement for a ToT pug (not that there's a ToT pug on this server but still), or asking for 515(520)+ for Heroic Scenarios?


Yep, I got turned away from a HScen group last night for "only" having a 498 ilvl. Nevermind that I've completed more than a dozen of them, rarely with any issues, and only once have I gotten completely schooled for DPS by the other DPSer.

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