The gaping hole in Ret's rotation

Paladin
Not sure if this is relevant but AOW procs and Exo got pushed back to to last in our rotation now. Our new priority is Inq > 5HP TV > ES > HoW > CS > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP TV (> SS)
CS hits harder than Exo now.

It's relevant to proper Ret DPS, but what I posted was just a very simple example of how haste affects our mechanics. I could've even made my point with just one ability on a 3s CD. It's actually more complicated than that due to procs and abilities not having the same CD as each other, but that's outside the purview of napkin math.

That sure sounds like time wizardry to me. If the reduction to both the cooldowns and GCD is linear, as everyone believes it to be, then that time cannot be moved elsewhere.

I'm not sure what's complicated about this. Your absolute wait time would only decrease if you were measuring your whole active time in terms of ability usage rather than total time. Using my example, if you were just going for 300 cycles, then yes your absolute time spent waiting would be less with 30% haste than without. But if you're going for a certain amount of time, then more cycles are added in with more haste, and bringing the wait time percentage back to parity.
OP i just reread your post. it sound like your not using your abilities. You claim to have 5-6 seconds of nothing to do. CS with zero haste is 4.5 seconds. Are you sure you are using CS and TV? You do not mention then at all.
I pretty much don't do any PvE other than world bosses and the occasional LFR to fill out my PvE gear for World PvP.

I just experimented with a different rotation that usual. Basically my original would be (Judgment -> Exorcism -> CS -> Inquisition) then repeat, with Templar's Verdict taking the place of Inquisition unless it's needed to be buffed again.

That never seemed to work well, I always had that deadly opening in my DPS.

So, I just changed it ever so slightly and it seems to be working wonder's on a dummy atleast, so take into account the loss of holy power from being hit. Now it looks something like this

(Exorcism -> CS -> Judgment -> Inquisition) and of course repeat with Templar's Verdict.

Try that out and see how you like it.
The rotation does change with haste; the priority does not...And that just further compounds the issues of nomenclature we've been dealing with for years. >_<

So the whole concept of "haste doesn't change the rotation, it only speeds it up" that's been brought up over and over this whole expansion has been false? Admittedly I don't watch for that sort of thing in-game, so I can't really say if it's true or not; it's never been important before.

I'm probably just too tired to wrap my brain around this right now, but I think I do understand why the downtime wouldn't change (you're attacking more often, but each attack takes less time). It's just...weird. TIME IS WEIRD OKAY
08/14/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Keten
So the whole concept of "haste doesn't change the rotation, it only speeds it up" that's been brought up over and over this whole expansion has been false?

No, that's 100% accurate so long as you ignore the level 90 talents and have less than 50% haste. Dunno what Grog's on about.
Hmm, but was the "more attacks used with less time spent per attack equals the same total time" conclusion what you were trying to say?
That's one way to put it, yeah.
Okay. Maybe I should just stay out of mathy discussions when I'm tired. I can't math well with normal brain function as it is. xD
I'm speaking of the semantics involved in "rotation" and "priority." Maybe I'm looking too deeply into it, but I see a fundamental difference in the two terms despite that fact that we thoughtlessly use the two interchangeably while hypocritically noting that "rotation doesn't exist any more, only priority."

As I'm seeing it, "priority" is the list we run down to determine what buttons to push and when; "rotation" is the actual order of the buttons that we press. Hence, the priority is concrete as to which skill is more important, but rotation is fluid and affected by haste, range, position, movement, etc.
Except the rotation, even with an accurate definition, isn't affected by haste outside of level 90 abilities.

Not sure if this is relevant but AOW procs and Exo got pushed back to to last in our rotation now. Our new priority is Inq > 5HP TV > ES > HoW > CS > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP TV (> SS)
CS hits harder than Exo now.


hold up, is this true? when did it happen? I'm assuming this is only with the 4pc?
No, that's at all times. Was discovered just a couple weeks ago, but it probably happened when 5.3 went live.

Not sure if this is relevant but AOW procs and Exo got pushed back to to last in our rotation now. Our new priority is Inq > 5HP TV > ES > HoW > CS > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP TV (> SS)
CS hits harder than Exo now.


hold up, is this true? when did it happen? I'm assuming this is only with the 4pc?


7/16/2013 was simed out and then confiremed the next day on 7/17/2013 by Exemplar, Theck was even runing number on it and it is confirmed. it has to do with CS scales with Weapon dmg. And at this point most players are running with a 516 or better. At the start of the xpan exo was hitting harder, so that why it was prioritized above Cs even tho CS was a better HoPo generator.

That said, it is above a 1% gain so Exemplar has it up in his guide now, but you can decide if you want to change the priority. I am actually still using the old priority, but once i get a 5.4 flex weapon i am sure i will have to change because the difference will be too large to ignore.
08/14/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Elidra
In fact, until 50% haste your wait time increases with haste, as level 90 talents take up fewer globals.

Just what the heck kind of gear iLvl do you need to get to 50% haste? I have 491 iLvl and my Haste (now that I've reforged) is at a measly 12.20%. Since I don't raid, at this point I don't see my iLvl going much beyond 496. (Which is fine - I don't raid, I don't need raid gear.) And outside of receiving raid buffs while doing world bosses, I'm not going to get anywhere near 50%.

You have, at 0% haste, two abilities with 4.5s CD each

What abilities are these? Judgement has a base 6-second CD. I'm playing my other Ret pally (Horde-side, iLvl 481 and not reforged yet) right now, who has 10.22% Haste, and her Judgement CD is 5.44 seconds. Exorcism has a 13.6-second CD. Are you talking about CS and HotR? I wouldn't count those as "two abilities" because they're "either/or" - you can't use them back-to-back.


PVE is PVE for the most part. You don't have to raid to understand you need X amount of hit/expertise for targets above a certain level. You also don't have to raid to know which stats are best for your spec and how your rotation might change as gear improves. Raiding guides are not strictly for raiders the way PVP guides are for PVPers.

On the other hand, in a "raid situation" (in my case, while fighting world bosses in a group), the "gaping hole" I'm seeing becomes irrelevant because I'm not trying to do all the damage myself, the way I am when questing/playing solo. And when fighting a raid/world boss, I'm probably going to get to pop Avenging Wrath at least twice, which completely eliminates the "hole" because I get to fill in the gaps with Hammer of Wrath.

OP i just reread your post. it sound like your not using your abilities. You claim to have 5-6 seconds of nothing to do. CS with zero haste is 4.5 seconds. Are you sure you are using CS and TV? You do not mention then at all.

Yes, of course I am. I listed CS in my "rotation". I didn't mention TV simply because it's only usable once I have 3 HP. I use TV as soon as I have 3 HP, unless Inquisition needs to be refreshed.

I pretty much don't do any PvE other than world bosses and the occasional LFR to fill out my PvE gear for World PvP.

I just experimented with a different rotation that usual. Basically my original would be (Judgment -> Exorcism -> CS -> Inquisition) then repeat, with Templar's Verdict taking the place of Inquisition unless it's needed to be buffed again.

That never seemed to work well, I always had that deadly opening in my DPS.

So you were seeing the same "hole" I'm seeing, if I understand you correctly?

So, I just changed it ever so slightly and it seems to be working wonder's on a dummy atleast, so take into account the loss of holy power from being hit. Now it looks something like this

(Exorcism -> CS -> Judgment -> Inquisition) and of course repeat with Templar's Verdict.

Try that out and see how you like it.

Thanks, I'll give that a try :)

I'm probably just too tired to wrap my brain around this right now, but I think I do understand why the downtime wouldn't change (you're attacking more often, but each attack takes less time). It's just...weird. TIME IS WEIRD OKAY

It's okay - I'm also a Doctor Who fan :D

08/14/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
I'm speaking of the semantics involved in "rotation" and "priority." Maybe I'm looking too deeply into it, but I see a fundamental difference in the two terms despite that fact that we thoughtlessly use the two interchangeably while hypocritically noting that "rotation doesn't exist any more, only priority."

Just for the record, I DO understand the difference between the two terms. I utilize a priority system; I just used the term "rotation" for simplicity's sake.

7/16/2013 was simed out and then confiremed the next day on 7/17/2013 by Exemplar, Theck was even runing number on it and it is confirmed. it has to do with CS scales with Weapon dmg. And at this point most players are running with a 516 or better.

(bolding mine)

I wish. You'll see that this toon is still using a 470 PvP weapon. I don't see her getting anything better this expansion unless I decide to spend all her gold on one of those crafted 502 weapons. Actually, my Horde paladin has the 502 2h axe. She's on Cairne, where the Horde AH is the absolute worst AH of any server I play on (I have toons on five different servers). She had over 40k gold, and nothing at all to spend it on - the plate armor section of the AH was overloaded with crafted 458 PvP gear and absolutely nothing else. It's been that way since Cataclysm. So since she couldn't buy any armor upgrades (she had the gold, but nobody was selling), I went ahead and dropped 28.5k gold on the axe. Holy cow (heh - she's a tauren) she can dish out the damage, but her survivability sucks if she gets mobbed.
OP here - this is my tauren paladin. I have five 90s, and she's my only Horde 90. She fell behind my Alliance 90s, since I didn't have time to run all those dailies on so many toons. And her guild was already at level 25, so I gave priority to helping my other 90s guilds level up (one is at 24, and the other is up to 16). But my Alliance 90s are mostly geared, so Donoma here is getting more attention now.
And this is my #3 paladin. She's the first paladin I've leveled entirely in Prot spec. And whoa, she has so many attacks that she never finds herself with nothing to do in combat. Why does Prot have more attack abilities than Ret?
08/14/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Eilyssana
Just what the heck kind of gear iLvl do you need to get to 50% haste?


At the very least, LFR T16 gear. We can get really close in heroic ToT gear, but we're about 2% off from the supposed BiS list.

Though, to be fair, that's with matching all sockets; if we skip sockets, 50% may be attainable in current heroic raid gear.

I'm speaking of the semantics involved in "rotation" and "priority." Maybe I'm looking too deeply into it, but I see a fundamental difference in the two terms despite that fact that we thoughtlessly use the two interchangeably while hypocritically noting that "rotation doesn't exist any more, only priority."

Just for the record, I DO understand the difference between the two terms. I utilize a priority system; I just used the term "rotation" for simplicity's sake.


That actually wasn't directed at you, but at Elidra and Keten. You do see my point, though, as an issue of semantics, so that's something at least. Was starting to think I had completely lost the intent of my thought process again.

Why does Prot have more attack abilities than Ret?


Aggro is my guess. More AoEs to hold against DPS going ballistic. I actually wasn't even aware of the disparity until you mentioned it; I always feel like I'm waiting for something as Prot, on both my Paladins.
08/14/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Eilyssana
What abilities are these? Judgement has a base 6-second CD. I'm playing my other Ret pally (Horde-side, iLvl 481 and not reforged yet) right now, who has 10.22% Haste, and her Judgement CD is 5.44 seconds. Exorcism has a 13.6-second CD. Are you talking about CS and HotR? I wouldn't count those as "two abilities" because they're "either/or" - you can't use them back-to-back.

I thought I made it pretty clear, but apparently not. My example wasn't accurate to our rotation, but simply to the mechanics behind them. "Let's take an extremely simplified rotation" was meant to convey that the following situation was hypothetical. I was illustrating how Sanctity of Battle and haste would work if those were the abilities we had, since it's a lot simpler than the abilities we actually have. However, even though our actual rotation is more complex, the theory behind it stays the same.
08/14/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Just what the heck kind of gear iLvl do you need to get to 50% haste?


At the very least, LFR T16 gear. We can get really close in heroic ToT gear, but we're about 2% off from the supposed BiS list.

With any luck, if I can find a new job I can start raiding at least LFR. The entire time I've been playing this game (since the beginning of WotLK), I've been working a job where I have a completely different schedule every week, which has left me completely unable to commit to any kind of "raiding schedule".

I've only set foot in raids three times since I've been playing. My Horde guild persuaded me to tag along while they ran one wing of Naxx at level 80. Didn't enjoy it. Some friends persuaded me to come along while they ran Zul'Gurub. I only agreed because this toon needed to fish up something there for the Salty title, and this was before Blizz decided to let us enter raids solo. And then, finally, I ran this toon, solo, into Serpentshrine Cavern to fish up what's-his-name, which was the last thing I needed for Salty.

OTOH, while it would be nice to have those raid shinies, they're not essential to me. I'm content progressing my character as much as I can outside of raids. Though that's actually why I took 6 months off at the end of Cata -- I couldn't progress my characters without raiding.
Honestly I can say I've noted the hole before myself. It was one of those, "Uh now what?" moments. I kinda got used to it, but now that I've opped my gear and tweaked my rotation I don't see it come up nearly as often and it seems shorter, almost like my toon's taking a quick breath then back to kicking butt. So I feel you on that. I've noticed if I open with Exo or CS it makes a difference, so possibly try playing around with that.

Oh hey Grog, I got a ToT weapon finally! Now I'm saving up for that stupidly expensive enchant. I have noted a slight improvement as well and now fall somewhere in the middle of the pack on damage while raiding.

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