Stats change who's going to Quit

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I dislike the idea of a squish. I thought of a way to compromise but I highly doubt It will even be considered but oh well.

Make all damage all health everything use "k" or "m" even damage. so when you shoot a 500,000 chaos bolt. it just says 500k. we keep are current levels of stuff but it takes up less room on the computer, why not? I see nothing wrong with that.


I am with ya, i don't like the idea, but I like your idea if they impose it. The thing is it doesn't matter if they do it or not, most people that use damage meters will show the true numbers unless they have to re-code the way damage is tracked in the addons.
Someone doesn't understand % scaling and how it affects the game; and clearly doesn't understand the intent or the implication of the item squish. Meaning: No effect, except smaller, more human readable numbers for stat formulae and comparing gear and such.

1000000 hp against things that hit for 10000 is *surprise*
the same as 10000 against things that hit for 100.

Squishing an exponential curve is much more complicated than it seems. There will be problems turning an exponential curve into a gentle linear one.

Soloing old content, e.g. They're either going to have to pick an arbitrary % to nerf it, or give players an exponential buff, because even level 95s in full end-game gear would be stomped judging from the huge squish numbers they've thrown out there. It'll feel super awkward either way.


The difference would be such a small fraction though that it wouldn't even matter. Yes if we want to put our academic top-hat and monocles on we'll be able to conclude that it is impossible for the squish to be perfect.
Frankly I want them to show us what they have planned because I personally cannot think of ANY elegant way to squish item levels and stats without either:

Making old gear EXTREMELY weak OR way too strong (depending on how they do it)
or
Making the system VERY complicated.

I mean, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if they made the gear scaling a bit more linear since there's no longer a real "need" for tier levels at previous max levels (for example, they no longer need 70 to range from ~115 to 151 and 80 from 200 to 277, etc) and could have some sort of stat crunch so at 90 in ~550 gear your item level would be more like 165 or something with less stats but the same power.

The only thing my friends and I had kicked around that even seemed work-able is some sort of [(stats*item level)/player level] solution to get the actual value, but they already have enough problems with new players not being able to figure out wtf is going on.

Also, Paperthin, the idea would be that this takes place MID expansion, not during this one. You wouldn't see your DK all of a sudden be weaker compared to current dungeons, all the current content would probably be outdated by the time they release this. The whole idea of the item level squish though, as I understand it, is that:
Currently, you have 1m health, do 100k dps, boss has 100m and hits you for 100k. After squish, all things being equal you'd have 100k health, do 10k dps, boss has 10m health and hits you for 10k.

Now, it sounds like Bashiok is saying they're not going to make you any weaker (possibly), which makes me wonder if we should expect something like "Strength rating", "Stamina rating" etc. so that at the very least in the next xpac we just won't be much "stronger" against that level of content than we are now. My interest is piqued.
As in, it's pretty much a matter of people leaving over their personal perception of the game.


Does that matter, really? Subs are subs. The more you lose the more you have to compensate by doing stuff like resorting to a F2P model with most upgrades coming from in game real cash purchases. That and laying off or firing non-essential staff, hiring IT independent contractors, temps and cutting corners in many ways that directly impact Blizzard employees and the people who re-sub to the game.
Here's an idea for all of you who say that you'll "feel weaker".
Turn off your numbers.
Turn off scrolling combat text, turn off display health.
You will FEEL just as strong because you're still two-shotting mobs.
I will never ever understand what the problem is and the amount of QQing is just ... it's ridiculous. Crying over different numbers? Give me a break, please.
Trolls trolls trolls what will you do with yourselves when you get older and your voices change and hair grows in strange places... Grow up really....


Says the op after frothing at the mouth in Blizzard's general direction.

For whom does the troll troll? It trolls for thee!

Do I and the rest of the posters in this thread need a rabies shot now?
>.>
<.<
O.o'
But still you'll "feel" weaker, even if the world is relatively weaker all around you. Now, maybe most people won't care. But I think there are a decent amount of people who'd suddenly feel less likely to level their character next expansion after they log in and see how low their stats suddenly are.
But there seems to have been up until now a large population of people who demand a stat squish. I know of two individuals personally who refuse to play now solely because "the numbers are ridiculous" and while two is a small number, I have seen many posts over the past couple years demanding a stat squish, or talking about how stupid the numbers are, etc.

I'm betting for every person who feels neutered by stat squish, there will be another who comes back to the game. There also may be people out there who checked into the game, but never played it because of that. We'll never know. Blizzard likely will never know. But they may start up the game when this happens.

Me? I could not care less. Every time someone flipped out because of the big numbers I thought they were foolish. Now that stat squish is a real possibility, I think the same of those freaking out over numbers being squished.

Squishing an exponential curve is much more complicated than it seems. There will be problems turning an exponential curve into a gentle linear one.

Soloing old content, e.g. They're either going to have to pick an arbitrary % to nerf it, or give players an exponential buff, because even level 95s in full end-game gear would be stomped judging from the huge squish numbers they've thrown out there. It'll feel super awkward either way.


The difference would be such a small fraction though then it wouldn't even matter. Yes if we want to put our academic top-hat and monocles on we'll be able to conclude that it is impossible for the squish to be perfect.

It's not really academic. It's just a fact that it's not as easy as lopping off a final zero from every stat and everything will be exactly the same.

When 85-90 is just a small linear bump up from 80-85, it'll be a much different game when you go back to old content. Even at the new level cap, you'll be nowhere near as strong as you used to be vs. the old content.
Frankly I want them to show us what they have planned because I personally cannot think of ANY elegant way to squish item levels and stats without either:

Making old gear EXTREMELY weak OR way too strong (depending on how they do it)
or
Making the system VERY complicated.


You lack imagination. Nowhere does a squish imply say that every single portion of the stat curve from 1-90 has to be on the same line. 1-60 can be on the same slope it is now. 60-90 can be on a higher slope, but still linear. And the new expansion can be allowed to rise exponentially (though at a much lower pace). There, everyone's happy.
The difference would be such a small fraction though then it wouldn't even matter.


The reductions proposed by GC are a lot more than a small fraction. They start at 30% for lvl 60 content, and ramp up bordering close to 70-75% for Wrath gear.

And the new expansion can be allowed to rise exponentially (though at a much lower pace). There, everyone's happy.


Except for the people that like to solo old content because *surprise* the power difference that allows it no longer exists.
08/27/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Mystberry
I have seen many posts over the past couple years demanding a stat squish, or talking about how stupid the numbers are, etc.


Most of the posts in the "please implement a stat squish" threads are about 30 different posters arguing that it isn't needed, the technical reasons don't exist to support it, and that it will negatively impact players with the 2 die hards who are convinced that computers haven't changed since the 1980's and wouldn't know what "binary" means even if you directed them to the wiki page for it.
Sooo easy to bait Trolls BE LEAVE it... You make it too easy ...
i dont even know whats going on in this thread...
08/27/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Bomdanil
The difference would be such a small fraction though then it wouldn't even matter.


The reductions proposed by GC are a lot more than a small fraction. They start at 30% for lvl 60 content, and ramp up bordering close to 70-75% for Wrath gear.

And the new expansion can be allowed to rise exponentially (though at a much lower pace). There, everyone's happy.


Except for the people that like to solo old content because *surprise* the power difference that allows it no longer exists.


Only if you try to solo TK in Lich King gear or DS in MoP gear. Once you move into the next expansion, by the time you get into quest greens, you'll be more than equipped to get into DS solo.
08/27/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Judgernaught
Is there a technical reason for a squish or is it just because some developers don't like big numbers?


I hear that it's actually approaching some database integer limitation, but I don't know anything about it so I couldn't offer much insight. Aside from that though if I do 183468312 damage or 18346831 those numbers are just difficult to tell apart during combat.
I cant even be leave this is being considered. This has to to be hands down the stupidest thing i have heard in some time coming form Blizzard.. Any one who thinks this is a good idea is trying to KILL WoW all together... Anyone who be leaves this is a solution to low numbers of people playing WoW is out of there noobie minds.....

Having said that I happen to have spent ALOT of time building up my Blood DK to 535 ilvl and a dig i have 1 million health without stacking a ton of stam.. its a reward to me and all my hard work and time i have spent, And the time my guild has put in helping me get where I am as a TANK... Your wrong for even thinking of taking that away from me and ILL SAY IT RIGHT HERE AND NOW IF YOU DE NUT MY DK.. THEN BLIZZARD YOU CAN HIT THE ROAD AND DONT LET THE DOOR HIT YOU WHERE GOD SPLIT YOU... I'M DONE.......

P.S. Blizzard just so I spell it out for you Im piss'd off.......


You're trolling right?
Copied this post from MMO-C on the benefits of an item squish:

The Item Squish does the following:

(1) Enables them to not invest the resources in upgrading the server, clients, databases, network data formats, and auxiliary programs to handle > 32 bit combat values. This effort can be invested elsewhere on something of higher value.

(2) By not expanding the values in network data structures to eight bytes, bandwidth is not wasted.

(3) The bizarre jump in the ilvl of greens at the boundaries of old expansions will be removed. This will:

(a) Make heirlooms work better at levels 60, 70, 80, and (soon) 85. Right now, heirloom stats at those levels are grossly low.

(b) Make the terminal instances of previous expansions less useless. As it stands right now, any gear you get in lvl 77-80 instances in Wrath, for example, is horrible compared to greens from Cataclysm.

(c) Reduces the disparity in power between players of different levels. This will make world PvP slightly less ganky.

(d) Makes greens from the next expansion have less of an impact on twink PvP in the previous expansion.

(e) Make top level crafted gear from previous expansions less useless.

(4) By compressing the raids of previous expansions into a single difficulty level, it will be possible and practical to run them during leveling. Right now, doing anything beyond Naxx at level 80 makes little sense.
08/27/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Bashiok
Is there a technical reason for a squish or is it just because some developers don't like big numbers?


I hear that it's actually approaching some database integer limitation, but I don't know anything about it so I couldn't offer much insight. Aside from that though if I do 183468312 damage or 18346831 those numbers are just difficult to tell apart during combat.


Thank you for the reply, personally I just pay attention to the first 3 digits.

The difference would be such a small fraction though then it wouldn't even matter. Yes if we want to put our academic top-hat and monocles on we'll be able to conclude that it is impossible for the squish to be perfect.


If they did a linear squish with a % nerf then it would end up being a very significant problem because the gear between level caps went like this:
if we set level 60 at 100% power and ilvl 60 as 100% power, the increase has gone like this:
level 60 tier 3 = 148% (same level)
level 70 tier 6 = 251.67% (level 116.67%)
level 80 tier 10 heroic = 461.67% (level 133.33%)
level 85 tier 13 heroic = 850% (level 141.67%)
and now
level 90 tier 16 heroic = 956.67% (level 150%)

So, that may not make sense immediately but what I am indicating is that, since level 60 (where gear STOPPED scaling linearly with level) our level has increased by 50%, whereas the power of our gear has scaled exponentially up 857%. If they were to do any type of linear squish even if level 90 still felt, proportionately, as strong as they do now it would result in all levels below 90 feeling substantially weaker, even though power is proportionate.
Once you move into the next expansion, by the time you get into quest greens, you'll be more than equipped to get into DS solo.


They wouldn't do an item squish to bring the stats down (remember, Wrath gear would be ~110ish ilvl) just to give us greens that are ilvl 400+ in the next expansion so that we can continue soloing things in 6.0 and beyond. That would completely defeat the point of having done the work on the squish in the first place.

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