I'm a LFR raider.....

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its not a choice, we have been over this before

for about 1/2 of the players its a choice between pay 25-100 for transfers or run LFR only because their servers dont support raid progression.


This is an unacceptable mentality.

I would like to introduce you to Azshara, according to realmpop we are 7th lowest, and wowprogress has us 4th lowest.
http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us
http://wow.realmpop.com/us.html

Yet despite our disadvantage we managed to go 7/13H this tier. My server hasn't seen a 25 man this whole expansion, we had our first ToT pug earlier this week and yet there were 10 people who found each other who managed to kill bosses together pretty well. There are always players out there to raid, your inability to find them is the problem.
09/04/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Daru
I am a little confused, if Flex raiding is "progression raiding"
It's not


I quoted Bashiok saying it was. Was he being sarcastic and that was a dig at all the LFR/Flex customers?
OP, let me expand upon what you meant to say:

I'm a LFR raider....

"...which means I am the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR.

I'm awful in ways no raider could dream of. I refuse to look up an encounter strategy because that would be a waste of my time since LFR's level of difficulty is so watered down that I'm able to stumble through it while half the group goes AFK and the actual raiders grinding their legendary quest drops carry us through the instance.

I put forth the least amount of effort possible, but because my brethren and I vastly outnumber actual raiders we deserve to be catered to and are spoon-fed the same content sans the difficulty.

I have no business even being able to see raid content outside of competent raiders' Youtube channels, but Blizzard abandoned its laurels long ago and shifted their focus to us--the most fickle, entitled, terrible consumers of the gaming community; bads and casuals. Like locusts we swarm to whatever is popular and consume. We consume until we become bored and then jump to the next FOTM medium because we don't know any better.

We have no passion for how raiding content should be. We fail to realize that World of Warcraft is The House That Raiding Built. We have no respect for those who came before us, so we shout "No Lifer!" down to the minority of old school raiders when they post nostalgic comments about how the game used to be. We demand more content faster, just to further demand it's unmitigated release so that we can blast through it in a single day's time because we have no reason to challenge ourselves because Blizzard has chosen to make the raid "accessible."

Accessible for who? For us. The lowest common denominator. The bads. The casuals. We give no thought to those around us or those who came before us because we're fickle, entitled, terrible consumers who are a blight on the WoW community. We are now leaving in droves because raiding content is now entirely accessible via LFR. Accessibility in this game means no challenge, no communication, and no sense of achievement. The very things that gave the end-game raiding its longevity is now what the game is devoid of.

But it's our fault that Blizzard removed any semblance of challenge from seeing raiding content. We forced their hand because we didn't want to be bothered by learning even the most basic encounter strategies or communication necessary to progress through normal difficulty. So we complained. Like children, we threw a tantrum until we got our way and Blizzard finally caved to make raiding accessible to the lowest common denominator."
I cant wait until the day LFR dies. Then all you LFRers will have something to really cry about.

I promise you this....With Flex Raiding i highly doubt, normal/heroic raiders. will help you get past the first few bosses. There's no way in hell they will step down 2 levels of ilvl'ed gear now that Flex has no lockout and can be done over and over again. Thats like saying current raiders are going back to Tier 14 raids for gear. Not gonna happen.

Remember Garalon,Durumu,Lei Shen the first month? If it wasnt for Normal/Heroic Raiders most of you wouldnt have downed it with them explaining how to fight works.

Lets see how many people quit the game or are forced into Flex cause the bads and AFKers dont wanna put in time and effort into downing content. Get ready for a WhaaaaFest!!!
I do think holding LFR is silly, even though I understand Blizzard's idea behind it. They give the masses of players NO new 5 man's because of the time requirement and LFR has given these players new content in its place. Then take said new content that replaced their 5 man's and held it back from them.

They updated their model of content and kept their old thinking.


I think I've provided a lot of good, logical reasons for why LFR content is paced the way it is. Did you read that, and what were your thoughts on those points?


I am fine with gating LFR wings to mimic progression, but I am still unclear of the 1 week delay for the first wing. Your first post seems to imply it is to preserve normal raiders from feeling left behind by LFR players who progress and experience the story faster.

As a solely LFR player I am frustrated that a patch which is centred around and named after a raid is completely inaccessible in my preferred raiding environment for one week to, frankly, preserve the feelings of another group of players. I do not see the harm in releasing the first wing day 1.
just unsub already, you wont ever be happy with what blizzard implaments, so just quit please do yourself a favor.


The only reason I haven't done that already is that I really love the Warcraft universe and its lore. As it stands, I find myself unsubbing between major updates because I'm tired of a lot of Blizzard's decisions.

I feel so torn because I've adored MoP from a content perspective. The music, the lore, the environments -- all absolutely top notch. It's just there's been so many obnoxious, asinine design decisions this time around that it's sucking the fun out of an otherwise fantastic expansion.

Ironically, Blizzard attempts at increased content longevity are what have killed the game's longevity for me. By gating everything six ways from Sunday, they've rapidly accelerated my burnout.
09/04/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Bashiok
for about 1/2 of the players its a choice between pay 25-100 for transfers or run LFR only because their servers dont support raid progression.


Flex is cross-realm day one. I know there are some pick up grouping sites out there to help you find cross-realm groups to join for various activities, and I would be almost certain that they are bursting with day-one Flex raids. If they aren't, they will be pretty quickly after the patch hits.


why not use the cross realm technology to just make normal and heroic modes cross realm too?
Did you read that, and what were your thoughts on those points?


My thought was that if you think the average raid group is clearing 14/14 in a month then I'd have to question Blizzard's criteria for determining what the "average" is. Other than that, though, your post was well thought out and appreciated in its swiftness.

why not use the cross realm technology to just make normal and heroic modes cross realm too?


They think it will hurt guilds and progression on the servers that would benefit from it.

No really, that's what GC said.

...stop laughing, he seriously said that :(
09/04/2013 12:42 PMPosted by Bashiok
LFR allows players of all playstyles, without guilds or fixed raiding schedules, to experience the content. But the point isn't to be able to do so faster than guild raiders, or for a guild raider to feel like the best way to experience the conclusion to the Mists of Pandaria story arc is to hop into an LFR queue rather than to play with their friends.


That almost sounds like Blizzard is worried that if the entirety of the raid were available on day one of the patch they would lose to many subs to quickly, if so that might point more to a problem with the replay value of the raid itself and not the release schedule of LFR.

For the record I am fine with the release schedule of LFR, if new raids were available immediately upon release in their entirety in LFR mode it would only serve to further drive the wedge between some normal mode raiders and players that support LFR.
I cant wait until the day LFR dies. Then all you LFRers will have something to really cry about.

I promise you this....With Flex Raiding i highly doubt, normal/heroic raiders. will help you get past the first few bosses. There's no way in hell they will step down 2 levels of ilvl'ed gear now that Flex has no lockout and can be done over and over again. Thats like saying current raiders are going back to Tier 14 raids for gear. Not gonna happen.

Remember Garalon,Durumu,Lei Shen the first month? If it wasnt for Normal/Heroic Raiders most of you wouldnt have downed it with them explaining how to fight works.

Lets see how many people quit the game or are forced into Flex cause the bads and AFKers dont wanna put in time and effort into downing content. Get ready for a WhaaaaFest!!!


Youll be waiting a LONG time then! LFR is not going to die out due to flex or even if normal raiders dont use lfr anymore.
Blizzard has stated the MAJORITY of lfr raiders are not normal raiders. So you make up a very very small part of the players using lfr.
IF (and this is a big IF) success rate drops in lfr due to you not being there then blizzard will simply adjust the difficulty to where they want the success rate to be.

If any mode is going to suffer from the addition of flex mode it will be normal modes.
I see a LOT of struggling normal mode guilds dropping down to flex mode full time.
I have already seen a LOT of guilds on this server advertising they will be going full on flex.
Upfront clarity: the unlock schedule for LFR in 5.4 is exactly the same as it was in 5.2.

In the vast majority of cases raiders are progressing through Normal, and especially Heroic, at a steady pace over weeks and months. A very small percentage of the very best world-first raiders, of course, will complete the raids much quicker than that, but in the vast majority of cases raiders don't step into Normal and down the last boss that same week, let alone the third or fourth boss. Most Normal raiders will get the first few bosses down in the first couple weeks, and the unlock schedule of LFR is very much intended to match the median progression of a Normal raid group.

LFR allows players of all playstyles, without guilds or fixed raiding schedules, to experience the content. But the point isn't to be able to do so faster than guild raiders, or for a guild raider to feel like the best way to experience the conclusion to the Mists of Pandaria story arc is to hop into an LFR queue rather than to play with their friends.

Flex does have an accelerated unlock timetable, and the first wing will be available on day-one of the patch. While Flex has a lot of... flexibility, it still requires coordination of a raid leader to create a competent group. Potentially to your benefit though Flex is cross-realm, and groups can be built of multiple guilds and friends regardless of the realm they play on. Considering the increased difficulty of Flex we're not sure how successful day-one Siege of Orgrimmar Flex PUGs will be (and it is progression raiding, not just slightly harder LFR), but we're excited to see people give it a shot. That's probably an option a lot of current LFR-only raiders will find enticing, and could lead them to a regular raiding group, new friends, maybe a new guild, and even higher difficulty levels.


Thank you thank you thank you so much for addressing this. This whole expansion has felt that way for me and it makes me so happy that even though it's a small step, you are finally putting some faith back in the raiding community. Keep it up!


Seconded.
09/04/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Judgernaught
LFR allows players of all playstyles, without guilds or fixed raiding schedules, to experience the content. But the point isn't to be able to do so faster than guild raiders, or for a guild raider to feel like the best way to experience the conclusion to the Mists of Pandaria story arc is to hop into an LFR queue rather than to play with their friends.


That almost sounds like Blizzard is worried that if the entirety of the raid were available on day one of the patch they would lose to many subs to quickly, if so that might point more to a problem with the replay value of the raid itself and not the release schedule of LFR.

For the record I am fine with the release schedule of LFR, if new raids were available immediately upon release in their entirety in LFR mode it would only serve to further drive the wedge between some normal mode raiders and players that support LFR.


That has more to do with the fact that LFR itself eats into the replayability of a game.

Raiding takes effort and teamwork to complete, LFR doesn't. It's easy to see why it doesn't have the same replay value.
Well, I figure I'll just cancel my sub for the month of October. No sense sitting and twiddling my thumbs while I wait for the new content to be released. I'd rather play through the full story of SoO in one go anyway.

I did, but I disagree with the thought behind holding the content unless I am misunderstanding it. I think Blizzard is over thinking not opening it all at once to all 4 raid types.

I am generalizing but heroic raiders only care about heroic level accomplishments and generally not the story. Normal and flex people can do their thing, and LFR people can do their thing all at the same time and the world goes on. If people feel they have to do x for x, that is a problem they are creating for themselves.

I could argue about no new heroics like DS/ICC, and some could say but Timeless Isle. I just think time gating raids is a waste of time and promotes LOL casuals suck.

Either way, it is what it is and not the end of the world.


This is a good post. I like this post.

Blizzard is far too obsessed with making players play their way. We should be able to make our own choices.
Blizzard is far too obsessed with making players play their way. We should be able to make our own choices.

Stop saying stupid crap when you have nothing to support your claim
09/04/2013 04:08 PMPosted by Mystberry


Well, the point was on low population servers with little to no raid activity.

That means helm/boots might be missing as well since you can only get those from disenchanted raid drops.

But your point is valid. Getting to 510+ ilvl is trivial even if all you did was LFR. You have valor upgrades which puts all ToT LFR gear at 510. You have VP gear, and even the legendary cloak, which should bring your average ilvl well into the 520 range (the cloak alone will add something like 5 or 6 ilvls).
You're right, possibly helm/boots would be absent, but could be filled with 516. Even so, 502 in those slots isn't the end of the world... really better anyway than 516.

515+ would be simple for anyone with zero access to normal raids if they want it. As it is, someone already posted something from open raid listing 505+ requirement. It's not likely to be the only one, and even if it was, nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own flexi-raid with whatever requirements they want.


you know what a group of 500 or 505 players going into flexi is....

a failure waiting to happen.
And blizzard still takes my money and gives other members there content before they give me mine.

Equal release of content to ALL MEMBERS.


They don't give other members content before they give you yours. You just choose to only raid LFR. The choice is yours and you can choose to raid normal or heroic, or even flex in 5.4. You choose to only do LFR and that's your problem, not Blizzard's.
09/04/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Bomdanil
why not use the cross realm technology to just make normal and heroic modes cross realm too?


If virtual realms work out the way they were described that is essentially what will be happening.

Quote bug, I know it wasn't Bomdanil that posted that line.
You're right, possibly helm/boots would be absent, but could be filled with 516. Even so, 502 in those slots isn't the end of the world... really better anyway than 516.

515+ would be simple for anyone with zero access to normal raids if they want it. As it is, someone already posted something from open raid listing 505+ requirement. It's not likely to be the only one, and even if it was, nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own flexi-raid with whatever requirements they want.


you know what a group of 500 or 505 players going into flexi is....

a failure waiting to happen.


So you're saying that pugs have ridiculous requirements, or have requirements so lenient that they can't succeed?

What about the 510+ groups forming in GD right now? Is that also destined to fail? Also, what is failure? Is it wiping a lot? Because if you take Bashiok at his word, Flex is a progression difficulty, which means that a lot of wiping is intended.
Threads like this get blue responses instantly

Threads detailing important circumstances are left to rot.


pretty much yeah
You're right, possibly helm/boots would be absent, but could be filled with 516. Even so, 502 in those slots isn't the end of the world... really better anyway than 516.

515+ would be simple for anyone with zero access to normal raids if they want it. As it is, someone already posted something from open raid listing 505+ requirement. It's not likely to be the only one, and even if it was, nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own flexi-raid with whatever requirements they want.


you know what a group of 500 or 505 players going into flexi is....

a failure waiting to happen.


Flex is supposed to have some progression. Success should not be guaranteed. LFR is there if you want guaranteed boss kills.

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