I'm a LFR raider.....

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some of the best raiders have never set foot in an LFR, they have progressed gear wise by working the raids progressively MSV, HoT, ToEs, ToT


That's because they had fully upgraded heroic gear moving into the next tier. The vast majority of raiders aren't. ToT LFR gear is better than ToES normal gear. The only people who are able to completely skip LFR are bleeding edge heroic raiders, and even they often have need of new tier items like trinkets, even if they're LFR versions.

Sure, you can raid without doing LFR, but anyone who's ever been a serious raider before knows that it's all about optimization. You do everything in your power to succeed. Plus, it's incredibly disrespectful to your fellow raiders to skip LFR while it still contains upgrades for you. It essentially says "your time isn't worth me doing LFR every week to improve my DPS, so I'll just sit here in sub-par gear while we keep wiping to the enrage timer." I have more respect or my raid team than that. I hate LFR, but I do it anyway because my fellow raiders deserve nothing less.


Essentially this. My guild is not bleeding edge. We are not world top 100. We are not even top 1000 most likely. But we do push heroic content at the fastest pace we can given our skill levels, and when there is potential for an upgrade in LFR, NOT going after it is just unacceptable when you have 9 or 24 other people all going after their upgrades. It's a team effort. You're letting the team down if you're not doing your best. Our raid leader is a very nice guy, he doesn't force you to run every wing of LFR every week. But I know that when we go in on Tuesdays to push Heroic Animus some more as we have the last few weeks, There's a difference when our Mage got his LFR Unerring Vision over his 504 trinket. There's a difference when our DK who just switched to a pally for ease of progression gets a few more pieces since he's undergeared. And everyone is disappointed that our warlock has yet again failed to run LFR for a chance at a trinket upgrade, and it's painfully obvious that he doesn't care.

I'm illustrating my point here, the members of our raid team typically do not let each other down in this way.
09/04/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Vindicare
That has more to do with the fact that LFR itself eats into the replayability of a game


Highly debatable.

09/04/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Vindicare
Raiding takes effort and teamwork to complete, LFR doesn't. It's easy to see why it doesn't have the same replay value


Given the nature of RNG the carrot will serve as the reason to return regardless of difficulty level.
I have things in my life right now that just changed. I am going to be taking care of my grandma and that is gonna put a time damper on me for wow. Therefore, LFR is my option. I'm burn out of doing these raids that we have. I've done them so many stinking times to be ready for the new LFR Seige of Orgrimmar. Waiting is gonna suck because it's the only thing I've been looking forward too. I just hope it's not too long.
Even when I was limited to LFR and LFR only (i.e: not having to over gear the current content by 20+ ilvls/have achivement for full clear) the gating made a lot of sense to me. Thankfully my situation has changed when one guild finally took me in. There are still thousands more who cannot find 10 man normal guilds who are stuck on horridon to take them in. I do not think flex raid or connect realms will solve the issue although I think these features are steps in the right direction.

Anyway, two things ring true with me this topic. This:

I've been thinking a lot lately about what makes me feel valued as a costumer. Other games I've played have done a very good job of making me feel like they care about me and my experience as a gamer. Lately, with WoW, I'm feeling more and more like Blizzard doesn't value me. More like tolerate me because I give them money.

Think about it. Players like me have to wait over a month to fully experience the core feature of a patch. My favourite type of content, five man dungeons, was completely cut from the expansion's patch cycle just so that raiders could have slightly bigger and better raids. How am I supposed to interpret things like this?

To me, it just feels like Blizzard only cares about normal and heroic raiders, and they only throw the rest of us scraps so that we can subsidize the content for the players Blizzard is actually interested in designing content for. We're just dollar signs to them.

Now, that may not be the truth. I don't wish to paint Blizzard as some cruel ogre. But that's the impression their actions are giving me. I feel I've been very loyal to Blizzard as a customer, having played pretty much every game they've made since the 90s, and I'm started to wonder if they really deserve that loyalty. It seems that since I don't fit into their narrow view of what an ideal players is, my support doesn't count for much.


We honestly need more 5 mans.

And a second thing that someone said is that 5.2 came too early and now 5.4 is too late. I can't recall being tired of the 5.1 raids, and I still didn't feel "done" with them when 5.2 came out. Now I wish that ToT would go away for forever.
I'm not doing Flex either. If you are gonna swing Flex you mind as well just do Normal.


Good luck staying in any half-decent guild while refusing to run LFR for free gear.


Funny, the Normal and Heroic mode raiders cry that LFR raiders get gear for free, but then they will turn around and state that they run LFR for free gear. Kinda like saying, "You shouldn't be able to run LFR for "free" gear, but since I raid normals I am going to run LFR for "free" gear and that is ok."


The argument for most isn't that other people are getting free gear. It's that there are upgrades in LFR that (to avoid using the word "force" since everyone in this thread has decided to take every word literally) provide a huge and almost undeniable incentive for heroic and normal raiders to run the same content twice (or 3 times if Flex is going to work the same way) every week in order to remain competitive. It's the WotLK burnout of needing to run multiple versions of the same content to keep up with most of the people around you.

I could care less if someone who raids half the time as me has almost the same gear. It's the fact that to remain competitive I am persuaded to repeat content just to do the harder content. Obviously I can improve, a TON, and that will offset the gear I don't get from not running LFR, but at the same time when the gear is there, you're expected to go after it.
just unsub already, you wont ever be happy with what blizzard implaments, so just quit please do yourself a favor.

The only reason I haven't done that already is that I really love the Warcraft universe and its lore. As it stands, I find myself unsubbing between major updates because I'm tired of a lot of Blizzard's decisions.

I feel so torn because I've adored MoP from a content perspective. The music, the lore, the environments -- all absolutely top notch. It's just there's been so many obnoxious, asinine design decisions this time around that it's sucking the fun out of an otherwise fantastic expansion.

Ironically, Blizzard attempts at increased content longevity are what have killed the game's longevity for me. By gating everything six ways from Sunday, they've rapidly accelerated my burnout.


I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. Lore and story are what is important to me. This expansion has had some great lore and story but its all gated behind time locks, dailys weeklys, delayed releases etc

It makes me not want to play the game when I hit these limits, specifically because I feel i cannot work towards my goals. Now I would unsub and resub as content became available but it seems blizzard is designing content to not allow that as an option anymore.

If you don't run content every week you miss your legendary cloak, if you don't grind out your dailies you miss out on the lore cinematic/conclusion arc to the story, and they change the zone so you never will be able to play through them.

Now with LFR I planned on desubbing after I killed Garrosh a few times, which would have been around a month, looks like the same amount of content has now been stretched into 2-3 months because of the gated release.

I mean its very smart business sense to do it this way but it still bothers me how transparent and unapologetic it is. Well played blizzard.
This expansion has had some great lore and story but its all gated behind time locks, dailys weeklys

You obviously didn't play in TBC, the next expansion will be announced at Blizz con so you might as well keep your sub until then
The argument for most isn't that other people are getting free gear. It's that there are upgrades in LFR that (to avoid using the word "force" since everyone in this thread has decided to take every word literally) provide a huge and almost undeniable incentive for heroic and normal raiders to run the same content twice (or 3 times if Flex is going to work the same way) every week in order to remain competitive. It's the WotLK burnout of needing to run multiple versions of the same content to keep up with most of the people around you.

I could care less if someone who raids half the time as me has almost the same gear. It's the fact that to remain competitive I am persuaded to repeat content just to do the harder content. Obviously I can improve, a TON, and that will offset the gear I don't get from not running LFR, but at the same time when the gear is there, you're expected to go after it.


Just make a single lock out already, problem solved.
I did, but I disagree with the thought behind holding the content unless I am misunderstanding it. I think Blizzard is over thinking not opening it all at once to all 4 raid types.

I am generalizing but heroic raiders only care about heroic level accomplishments and generally not the story. Normal and flex people can do their thing, and LFR people can do their thing all at the same time and the world goes on. If people feel they have to do x for x, that is a problem they are creating for themselves.

I could argue about no new heroics like DS/ICC, and some could say but Timeless Isle. I just think time gating raids is a waste of time and promotes LOL casuals suck.

Either way, it is what it is and not the end of the world.


There are a lot of situations at play so I'll just try to bullet some of them quickly (sorry I gotta run soon):

  • Heroic/Normal raiders enjoy what they're doing. If LFR was available at the same time they would be required to also run LFR as, at least for Normal raiders, would likely hold some potential upgrades. Regardless of how small or specific (trinkets?), progression raiding for many requires squeezing every ounce out of every aspect of the game. If another guild does this thing, you have to do it too or you are suboptimal. That's not a factor of wanting to do it or not, it's a requirement to compete. That's probably also the most difficult mentality to get across as it's a fundamentally different way to approach a game for different people, and it really only requires the ability to accept that how you like to play the game doesn't and shouldn't apply to everyone else. Hardcore progression raiders don't think having all of Normal progression and LFR on week one sounds fun, and neither do we.


  • It's pretty lame if the biggest and baddest enemy of the entire expansion is killed first, day one, in the easiest difficulty. And it would be if it were at the same time. It's not only lame for the people attempting to kill him in the harder difficulties, but it's pretty lame for the people aspiring or looking up to those killing him in a harder difficulty and wanting to be a part of that progression. You may not necessarily care, and just want to kill Garrosh and be done, but a lot of people are playing the game because they want a challenge in defeating the most horrendous creature and enemies in the game. For a lot of players the point of playing a game is meeting and surmounting a challenge. It undermines that challenge when you can just go and do it in a difficulty, that by necessity of its random matchmaking, can be beaten very easily. Especially for groups of coordinated progression raiders.


  • Not everyone in a Normal raid will kill Garrosh before he's available to kill in LFR, this is true, but that doesn't mean we should just say screw it and open it all up for every difficulty day one. Those really vying for realm firsts very likely will kill him before he's available to LFR, and that's the main intent, a good faith effort to give progression guilds a chance at downing the content in their difficulties.


  • There are some players that just want to see the content and don't care too much about gearing up. They would race through LFR day one, down Garrosh, and ask "what now?", and likely come to the forums to complain we didn't give them enough content. We could get into some long debate about the nature of production, as well as basic laws of physics, but let's suspend all disbelief for this argument that we do our best to provide awesome and compelling content as quickly as we can for millions of players all with varying tastes, personal expectations, lives, goals, dreams, etc.


  • Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding.


  • In other words: if you are only doing LFR you are still going to see the content much faster !-even with a gated wing schedule-! than if you were in a Normal progression group.
515+ would be simple for anyone with zero access to normal raids if they want it. As it is, someone already posted something from open raid listing 505+ requirement. It's not likely to be the only one, and even if it was, nothing is stopping anyone from setting up their own flexi-raid with whatever requirements they want.


you know what a group of 500 or 505 players going into flexi is....

a failure waiting to happen.

You're getting access to progression raiding (according to Bashiok) which is what you claim your "backwater server" is lacking. You either want progression raiding or you don't. What I'm getting from you is that you really would like to be carried through the content instead with no wipes.

Well then, wait until late October or November because I guarantee you even in LFR you will be seeing lots and lots of failure.
I did, but I disagree with the thought behind holding the content unless I am misunderstanding it. I think Blizzard is over thinking not opening it all at once to all 4 raid types.

I am generalizing but heroic raiders only care about heroic level accomplishments and generally not the story. Normal and flex people can do their thing, and LFR people can do their thing all at the same time and the world goes on. If people feel they have to do x for x, that is a problem they are creating for themselves.

I could argue about no new heroics like DS/ICC, and some could say but Timeless Isle. I just think time gating raids is a waste of time and promotes LOL casuals suck.

Either way, it is what it is and not the end of the world.


There are a lot of situations at play so I'll just try to bullet some of them quickly (sorry I gotta run soon):

  • Heroic/Normal raiders enjoy what they're doing. If LFR was available at the same time they would be required to also run LFR as, at least for Normal raiders, would likely hold some potential upgrades. Regardless of how small or specific (trinkets?), progression raiding for many requires squeezing every ounce out of every aspect of the game. If another guild does this thing, you have to do it too or you are suboptimal. That's not a factor of wanting to do it or not, it's a requirement to compete. Hardcore progression raiders don't think having all of Normal progression and LFR on week one sounds fun, and neither do we.


  • It's pretty lame if the biggest and baddest enemy of the entire expansion is killed first, day one, in the easiest difficulty. And it would be if it were at the same time. It's not only lame for the people attempting to kill him in the harder difficulties, but it's pretty lame for the people aspiring or looking up to those killing him in a harder difficulty and wanting to be a part of that progression. You may not necessarily care, and just want to kill Garrosh and be done, but a lot of people are playing the game because they want a challenge in defeating the most horrendous creature and enemies in the game. For a lot of players the point of playing a game is meeting and surmounting a challenge. It undermines that challenge when you can just go and do it in a difficulty, that by necessity of its random matchmaking, can be beaten very easily. Especially for groups of coordinated progression raiders.


  • Not everyone in a Normal raid will kill Garrosh before he's available to kill in LFR, this is true, but that doesn't mean we should just say screw it and open it all up for every difficulty day one. Those really vying for realm firsts very likely will kill him before he's available to LFR, and that's the main intent, a good faith effort to give progression guilds a chance at downing the content in their difficulties.


  • There are some players that just want to see the content and don't care too much about gearing up. They would race through LFR day one, down Garrosh, and ask "what now?", and likely come to the forums to complain we didn't give them enough content. We could get into some long debate about the nature of production, as well as basic laws of physics, but let's suspend all disbelief for this argument that we do our best to provide awesome and compelling content as quickly as we can for millions of players all with varying tastes, personal expectations, lives, goals, dreams, etc.


  • Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding.


  • In other words: if you are only doing LFR you are still going to see the content much faster !-even with a gated wing schedule-! than if you were in a Normal progression group.

/thread
That's probably an option a lot of current LFR-only raiders will find enticing, and could lead them to a regular raiding group, new friends, maybe a new guild, and even higher difficulty levels.


I keep seeing this line of thinking, and I honestly believe it to be the reverse of what is likely to occur... I think it is WAAAAYYY more likely that Flex will be filled with Normal raiders "stepping down", rather than LFR raiders "stepping up".

Some will move up... sure. But I think (given a year or two) Flex will actually replace Normals, and LFR will be unaffected. Mostly unaffected anyway, as LFR will need to be tuned down even more than it is to offset the few that actually DID step up.
You obviously didn't play in TBC, the next expansion will be announced at Blizz con so you might as well keep your sub until then


I been playing since vanilla buddy, TBC has much better lore and a far richer story, but I think the tools and story telling technology has advanced waaaaay beyond anything they had available at the time.

As to my sub it depends on how the timeless isle works out, I quit in 5.0 after I hit the 8 or so daily reps that needed grinding (still haven't done them), came back some time around 5.2 (really liked 5.1/5.2 daily hubs) but for the past two months I have only been logging in to do LFR to get mats for the cloak (finally onto runestones now). next patch the guild is gonna give flex a go. Once Garrosh is dead do I stick around or quit till the xpac (I was going to quit for a couple months).
09/04/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Bashiok
There are a lot of situations at play so I'll just try to bullet some of them quickly (sorry I gotta run soon)


Haha ya I would run to after making that post.
09/04/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Therealgor
Now I would unsub and resub as content became available but it seems blizzard is designing content to not allow that as an option anymore.


I've actually made it work fairly well. Need to do a little more grinding on the months you do play, but it's not so bad.

The main thing that sucks about it is that there are days when I'm unsubbed and would really love to play WoW for an hour or two, but I'm not paying $15 just for a few hours of play.

Lord, I loathe the subscription model.

Heroic/Normal raiders enjoy what they're doing. If LFR was available at the same time they would be required to also run LFR as, at least for Normal raiders, would likely hold some potential upgrades. Regardless of how small or specific (trinkets?), progression raiding for many requires squeezing every ounce out of every aspect of the game. If another guild does this thing, you have to do it too or you are suboptimal. That's not a factor of wanting to do it or not, it's a requirement to compete. That's probably also the most difficult mentality to get across as it's a fundamentally different way to approach a game for different people, and it really only requires the ability to accept that how you like to play the game doesn't and shouldn't apply to everyone else. Hardcore progression raiders don't think having all of Normal progression and LFR on week one sounds fun, and neither do we.


I see that as just something progression raiders have to accept as part of their chosen playstyle. If you want to be the best, you need to put in the effort. Just as us LFR heroes need to accept that we'll never get the gear, achievements, titles, and mounts that progression raiders have access to. It's a tradeoff either way.

Again, the message this sends to me is that it's okay to inconvenience LFR players, but not progression raiders. This makes me feel as though I don't matter to Blizzard.

09/04/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Bashiok
There are some players that just want to see the content and don't care too much about gearing up. They would race through LFR day one, down Garrosh, and ask "what now?", and likely come to the forums to complain we didn't give them enough content.


Personally, I'd focus on alts and actually playing the game -- something you've made very difficult to do this expansion.

Instead, I find a patch dropping that I essentially can't play until a few weeks have gone by, and that makes me ask, "What now?" The answer is likely going to be, "Unsub and play something else for a few weeks."

I can't speak for everyone, but where I'm concerned, Blizzard's efforts to artificially extend the life of content have been incredibly self-defeating. Instead of keeping me playing longer, they've made me spend less time with MoP than any prior expansion.
09/04/2013 05:05 PMPosted by Mystberry


you know what a group of 500 or 505 players going into flexi is....

a failure waiting to happen.

You're getting access to progression raiding (according to Bashiok) which is what you claim your "backwater server" is lacking. You either want progression raiding or you don't. What I'm getting from you is that you really would like to be carried through the content instead with no wipes.

Well then, wait until late October or November because I guarantee you even in LFR you will be seeing lots and lots of failure.


The problem is the backwater servers are so far behind that you essentially wind up with Flexi gated behind LFR.

yeah on a high progression server its not unusual to see even non regular raiders running around in 520+ because of the large amount of pugs.

backwater servers most players are non raiders, and have neither the skill, experience or gear because of lack of activity, and this is due to no fault of their own.

So whats going to wind up happening is flexi is gated behind LFR because you need that 528 ilevel to get you up to the ilevel you need to get into a pug that has half a chance of actually downing something, this has nothing to do with carrying.

IF flexi had been done in 5.0 this wouldnt be an issue everyone would be on even ground, but now in 5.3, people on poor servers are 10-20 ilevels behind players of the same skill on better servers.

My main and alt are 512 and 505 ilevel respectivly, thats significantly lower than what you would see if I was on one of the mega servers.

And the server situation is one blizzard let fester for a long time in the pursuit of transfter dollars.
I actually dont understand why it isnt available when the patch comes out.

LFR doesnt get any cut scenes, The end boss has already been killed countless times on the PTR, so as far as killing a boss on day 1 well thats already been done, Normal raiders will still need gear (depending on drops as soon as the LFR opens).

I guess i dont understand holding the content back unless the ultimate goal is to milk another week of $$ out of a person.

Actually I do understand I guess its throwing a bone to the Heroic raiders and Normal raiders at the people who dont do those things expense.

I also agree with the poster above me, if grouping and progressing were a big concern something would of been done about server populations sooner, I did actually see a pug raid forming on my server yesterday though!

Regardless I look forward to the raid, whether i do it when it comes out or if im still around in the future who knows.
I did, but I disagree with the thought behind holding the content unless I am misunderstanding it. I think Blizzard is over thinking not opening it all at once to all 4 raid types.

I am generalizing but heroic raiders only care about heroic level accomplishments and generally not the story. Normal and flex people can do their thing, and LFR people can do their thing all at the same time and the world goes on. If people feel they have to do x for x, that is a problem they are creating for themselves.

I could argue about no new heroics like DS/ICC, and some could say but Timeless Isle. I just think time gating raids is a waste of time and promotes LOL casuals suck.

Either way, it is what it is and not the end of the world.


There are a lot of situations at play so I'll just try to bullet some of them quickly (sorry I gotta run soon):

  • Heroic/Normal raiders enjoy what they're doing. If LFR was available at the same time they would be required to also run LFR as, at least for Normal raiders, would likely hold some potential upgrades. Regardless of how small or specific (trinkets?), progression raiding for many requires squeezing every ounce out of every aspect of the game. If another guild does this thing, you have to do it too or you are suboptimal. That's not a factor of wanting to do it or not, it's a requirement to compete. That's probably also the most difficult mentality to get across as it's a fundamentally different way to approach a game for different people, and it really only requires the ability to accept that how you like to play the game doesn't and shouldn't apply to everyone else. Hardcore progression raiders don't think having all of Normal progression and LFR on week one sounds fun, and neither do we.


  • It's pretty lame if the biggest and baddest enemy of the entire expansion is killed first, day one, in the easiest difficulty. And it would be if it were at the same time. It's not only lame for the people attempting to kill him in the harder difficulties, but it's pretty lame for the people aspiring or looking up to those killing him in a harder difficulty and wanting to be a part of that progression. You may not necessarily care, and just want to kill Garrosh and be done, but a lot of people are playing the game because they want a challenge in defeating the most horrendous creature and enemies in the game. For a lot of players the point of playing a game is meeting and surmounting a challenge. It undermines that challenge when you can just go and do it in a difficulty, that by necessity of its random matchmaking, can be beaten very easily. Especially for groups of coordinated progression raiders.


  • Not everyone in a Normal raid will kill Garrosh before he's available to kill in LFR, this is true, but that doesn't mean we should just say screw it and open it all up for every difficulty day one. Those really vying for realm firsts very likely will kill him before he's available to LFR, and that's the main intent, a good faith effort to give progression guilds a chance at downing the content in their difficulties.


  • There are some players that just want to see the content and don't care too much about gearing up. They would race through LFR day one, down Garrosh, and ask "what now?", and likely come to the forums to complain we didn't give them enough content. We could get into some long debate about the nature of production, as well as basic laws of physics, but let's suspend all disbelief for this argument that we do our best to provide awesome and compelling content as quickly as we can for millions of players all with varying tastes, personal expectations, lives, goals, dreams, etc.


  • Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding.


  • In other words: if you are only doing LFR you are still going to see the content much faster !-even with a gated wing schedule-! than if you were in a Normal progression group.


Im not saying gating is completely wrong

but why do we have to wait a week to get any content.
It's pretty lame if the biggest and baddest enemy of the entire expansion is killed first, day one, in the easiest difficulty. And it would be if it were at the same time. It's not only lame for the people attempting to kill him in the harder difficulties, but it's pretty lame for the people aspiring or looking up to those killing him in a harder difficulty and wanting to be a part of that progression. You may not necessarily care, and just want to kill Garrosh and be done, but a lot of people are playing the game because they want a challenge in defeating the most horrendous creature and enemies in the game. For a lot of players the point of playing a game is meeting and surmounting a challenge. It undermines that challenge when you can just go and do it in a difficulty, that by necessity of its random matchmaking, can be beaten very easily. Especially for groups of coordinated progression raiders.


I find this little bit a lil offensive. As a LFR I found ToT to be a challenge. The other raids were easy. ToT in my eyes at least I had to move more and do more. I put my heart and soul into ToT. It might be considered "easy" to the employee's of Blizz but not to everyone. Keep that in mind when you talk to LFR's. I want to destroy Garrosh for what he has done to Pandaria. For what he is doing the all of Azeroth. For the destruction and violence he has brought among the people of Azeroth. Not just to kill him in one day and get on with it. I have a vile hate for that leader. I also cannot wait to see who takes the thrown. I have a 90 horde who is ready to take Garrosh down so I see both sides of the story. Story and Lore are more important to me than just the gear. I still will have bottom line gear compared to the Normal/Heroic raiders. I did ICC I know what it feels like to defeat the Lich King with all the hard work involved. I did it the hard way on my sh priest. I do respect those who still do them. ToT was a good challenge and I hope that Garrosh brings the same if not a little bit more.

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