Prot gear wtf?

Paladin
Yeah, there's still that giant piece of inaccurate information floating around - even amongst Ret players, despite the IAS buff having never interacted with SoB, even in Cata.
Also, at least as far as I'm aware, the 50% haste cap only applies to the gcd, haste's impact on ability cds (both for spells as well as through SoB) will continue beyond 50%. So beyond 50% melee haste, we'll still continue to get more SoI procs, more frequent SS/EF ticks, and potentially still higher holy power generation (though at a dps cost). So in terms of survival, haste's value really shouldn't change.
So in terms of survival, haste's value really shouldn't change.


It would be fun to see some sims on that. For a few scenarios, a balanced Haste/Mastery approach is already good prior to the GCD cap of 50%, wonder how much Haste goes down/Mastery goes up after 50%.
Except at all skill levels, Haste is more valuable than mastery and sims better in every scenario as long as you use Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield.


That only holds absolutely true until 5.4 goes live. With the changes to SoI and SS this looks to be changing. Eternal Flame sims as being the go to talent instead of SS. And a portion of what makes SoI so good now is how it works with Glyph of the Battle Healer which is also changed in 5.4.

That said Haste will still likely outperform Mastery after the patch.
It would be fun to see some sims on that. For a few scenarios, a balanced Haste/Mastery approach is already good prior to the GCD cap of 50%, wonder how much Haste goes down/Mastery goes up after 50%.
What I mean is that in terms of pure survival, haste doesn't loose any benefit at all at 50% that it has before then.

As noted, obviously haste beyond 50% will continue to increase attack speed and therefore the self-healing from SoI. Likewise it'll continue to increase the tick frequency of SS/EF.

And while it'll stop reducing the gcd, it'll continue to reduce the actual cds on our abilities, which means we do technically continue to get increased holy power generation, possibly at the loss of dps, but that's why I said "in terms of survival". Basically after reaching 50% haste we run into the same issue that Ret had with haste/SoB during Cata: leave empty gcds to take advantage of the reduced cds or fill every gcd and not benefit from the haste. For Ret this was a simple decision since it was whichever produced more dps and filling those gcds was worth more, but for us the question is broader: our fillers are mainly just for damage while our generators are for defense, so if you want the most out of your defense then giving up a few fillers isn't as big a deal.

ie up to 50% haste our rotation is CS-J-filler-CS-filler-J-CS-filler-filler because the gcd and cds scale at the same rate the rotation has simply sped up as we gain haste.

at say 60% haste CS would drop from 3s to ~2.8s, and J from 4s to 3.75 so to maximize hopo generation we could do something like CS-J-CS-J-CS-filler, effectively just leaving out 3 fillers from the normal rotation to avoid delaying the hopo generators (effectively cutting almost half a second off the standard rotation). Again, certainly a dps loss but would still be a defensive gain. Now whether or not this will be the best choice or whether people will actually do it I can't say, but it'll be an option.

Though honestly, with the way mastery is simming, even with the recent fixes to the model, I don't see it suddenly jumping up over haste at 50% (haste's defensive benefits remain virtually unchanged and mastery is still behind it by a decent gap). I imagine that the common practice will be to stop at 50% and switch to mastery (or stam), if for no other reason than I expect the rotation would feel very clunky trying to maximize hopo beyond 50%.
09/06/2013 12:13 AMPosted by Kithhurrn
That only holds absolutely true until 5.4 goes live. With the changes to SoI and SS this looks to be changing. Eternal Flame sims as being the go to talent instead of SS. And a portion of what makes SoI so good now is how it works with Glyph of the Battle Healer which is also changed in 5.4.
You're right on the SS/EF changes, but you're very wrong on the SoI part. As far as the sim is concerned the Battle Healer Glyph may not even exist because the Sim is only looking at us, and the battle healer glyph doesn't affect us at all. Battle Healer is only a secondary perk for SoI, it has nothing to do with why we use it in the first place.

Also, if we're arguing low skill priority vs high skill priority, then in 5.4 a "bad" tank would probably be better off sticking to SS than EF, as EF's effectiveness will scale directly off of how well you perform the rest of the rotation while SS is still just a button to press every 30 seconds. Which means they'd still be better off with haste regardless of skill level.
09/06/2013 12:13 AMPosted by Kithhurrn
That only holds absolutely true until 5.4 goes live. With the changes to SoI and SS this looks to be changing. Eternal Flame sims as being the go to talent instead of SS. And a portion of what makes SoI so good now is how it works with Glyph of the Battle Healer which is also changed in 5.4.


The changes to SoI don't affect the way it scales with haste, at all and Battle Healer is not something that figures in our mitigation since it heals only the rest of the raid, not the Paladin. 5.4 changes nothing as far as Seal of Insight goes.

(Paranthesis : you are making the classic mistake of overselling Battle Healer. I don't know why everyone has such a big hard-on over it. Looking at my recount night after night, 50% of my healing is Sacred Shield, 40% is Insight, my self heal and 10% is Battle Healer, the raid heal. I can average about 50k HPS in a night on non-gimmick fights, putting Battle Healer at about 5k HPS... doesn't even come close to "replacing a full blown healer!" as some people make it sound like Battle Healer is doing).

As for SS in 5.4, again, nothing changes in regards to Haste and Sacred Shield. The 30% is accross the bat, no matter how much Haste you have or don't have. It'll still tick faster from Haste and thus provide extra mitigation to people having more Haste.

The only change to Haste in 5.4 is Grand Crusader and it's not much of a change at all. With the strength on our gear, we get enough Parry to offset this change on ST and MT it'll be that much more insane from again just Strength and base dodge.

Stat priority in 5.4 doesn't change. SS/EF is another debate that has nothing to do with stat priorities.
09/06/2013 12:13 AMPosted by Kithhurrn
Except at all skill levels, Haste is more valuable than mastery and sims better in every scenario as long as you use Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield.


That only holds absolutely true until 5.4 goes live. With the changes to SoI and SS this looks to be changing. Eternal Flame sims as being the go to talent instead of SS. And a portion of what makes SoI so good now is how it works with Glyph of the Battle Healer which is also changed in 5.4.

That said Haste will still likely outperform Mastery after the patch.

EF scales with haste, and other than a decrease in Vengeance, SoI will still heal just as much.
To be fair guys, I think Kithhurrn's comment regarding SS and EF is because EF will require considerably more skill than SS to use effectively (not necessarily saying that it will be super difficult to manage EF, just that SS is such a no brainer).

So for a really bad tank (like my "skill-less" sim earlier) using EF in 5.4 haste may not be the winner if they're not using EF properly (or at all). But like I said, that bad tank would probably still be better off just speccing back into SS and stacking haste than taking EF and stacking avoidance.
So for a really bad tank (like my "skill-less" sim earlier) using EF in 5.4 haste may not be the winner if they're not using EF properly (or at all). But like I said, that bad tank would probably still be better off just speccing back into SS and stacking haste than taking EF and stacking avoidance.


If he's bad and not using EF properly, nothing can save him. We've already had this discussion about these super bad tanks that don't generate HoPo, don't use any abilities and just stand there and take hits to try and make it sound like "haste" requires "Skill".

It's a fallacy, that bad tank that's not getting any benefits from Haste is not even going to be holding aggro anyhow. That's how he'll mitigate damage, but just simply not having aggro.
http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/04/ef-you/

even if you are bad at using EF, come 5.4 it will still outperform SS.

and reaching 50% haste is very possible in current gear.
http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/04/ef-you/

even if you are bad at using EF, come 5.4 it will still outperform SS.

and reaching 50% haste is very possible in current gear.
Nothing about that blog post says or suggests that EF will still outperform if you're bad at using it. Theck's sims are typically done assuming perfect execution of the rotation. A BIG part of what makes EF so strong is not only refreshing it every 30s (the only real requirement that SS has) but using it with 3 holy power as well as how many BoG stacks you have, which means that it's value is directly related to how much holy power you generate in those 30 seconds.

In those sims, with the haste levels being used it's keeping at least a 3 holy power 4BoG EF up 100% of the time. If you start turning down the skill factor then EF's effectiveness will start to drop. A less-skilled player may be refreshing EF with less than 3 holy power, or they may have downtime before refreshing it, or they may not be generating as much holy power as they could be resulting in fewer SotRs which means fewer stacks of BoG. Or they may be refreshing it too often causing them to waste holy power that should have een used for SotR.

If they're only keeping a 2 holy power 2BoG EF up 70% of the time then its only going to be about about 1/3 as strong as it could be. Where the same person using SS would only be suffering from the lack up uptime, ie 70% uptime but otherwise just as good. This is going to narrow the gap between EF and SS by a LOT. And as Theck points out, because of the natural benefits of absorbs compared to heals, EF needs to be significantly ahead to make it worth using. In fact on live in 5.3 EF's hot is already slightly more healing than SS, but SS still wins, and that's pretty much the situation that this hypothetical unskilled tank would be in.

And that's not even an example of an extreme case of unrealistic skilllessness. I'd expect that type of performance would be entirely possible out of your below-average, lfr~normal mode tank that just happened to hear (or was told) to use EF instead of SS
I have been away for awhile and I know things change but....this just seems wrong. Main stats are haste? Stamina I understand and hit/exp cap ok got that. Why would blizz make dodge and block which are usually the end of of tanking seem so stupid.

I have been reading some guides here and their so maybe I am looking at the wrong ones.

Is it true after hit/exp cap its haste?
If so how long before thy change it back?


I don't think they'll be changing it. And I do sympathize - as a long-term pally tank, suddenly being told haste is wonderful and hit/exp are necessary is just...odd. Still, it does work out nicely. I may have problems with the attitudes the change has generated, but the stats themselves work out well.

Most high-end players prefer haste because it helps smooth out spike damage, which I can imagine is extremely helpful, if not vital, in non-LFR raids. More haste = lower cooldown on your Holy Power generation moves = more Shield of the Righteous = more regular physical damage reduction. To say nothing of the DPS increase, of course. Plus with the way avoidance stats scale this time around, a Normal raider would be lucky to hit 40% total avoidance, and since Blocking is on another table now, becoming unhittable is a thing of the past.

Despite what some people may say, dodge and parry are still useful...just not nearly as much as they used to be. I'm sure the new expansion, whenever it comes out, will be another change for tank specs. As has been stated, Blizz likes the new active mitigation model, but I doubt they wanted tank gear to become passé either. They just haven't found a good balance yet, and frankly I can't wait for when they do.
I may have problems with the attitudes the change has generated


Because you happen to sit on the wrong side of the fence and constantly argue against us because you don't want to see what's more optimal doesn't mean we have attitude problems.

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