Jaina's Role In Ending Cinematic(Spoilers)

Story Forum
Something has been bothering me all day that I decided to finally make a thread about in the Siege of Orgrimmar end cinematic. If it wasn't clear from the title, be warned spoilers are ahead if you haven't watched it yet.

So in the Alliance version of the cinematic, Jaina is encouraging Varian to go and finish off the Horde's leaders right now, acting like they are filthy monsters. Now I know she is angry about Theramore and Dalaran, but here is my problem.
Stole this part of the dialogue from Wowpedia, for full context: http://wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Fall_of_Shan_Bu_(Alliance)

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: But know this, "Blood" Elf: There can be no peace while Hellscream is Warchief of the Horde.
Lor'themar Theron says: That is precisely why I wish to conserve our strength today.
Jaina's expression softens.
Lor'themar Theron says: Lady.
Lor'themar bows.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Lord.
Jaina curtsies.
Lor'themar Theron yells: Gather the wounded. Withdraw to the harbor.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Everyone, regroup back at the camp. Our work here is done.
The two forces turn and walk away.


So she starts to see clearly that not all the Horde are bad. Just like she did before Mists of Pandaria. Now I know right now I am going to have this thread covered in fan boys from both sides, Horde saying "OH SHE NEEDS TO DIE NOW" and Alliance saying "WELL PINNING EVERYTHING ON GARROSH IS STUPID" or other done to death arguments like that. But from a mostly neutral(I have been Horde since I was seven in vanilla and have played wow since, I can be slightly biased but I dislike both factions in general mostly) standpoint, I have to ask.

Why does she go from, on the route to forgiveness, to full out wanting the Horde completely destroyed? The only conclusion I can come to is that they didn't want to put together a whole discussion, and for some reason the team decided they needed Jaina to be the one that is compared to Varian morally in this video.

Which is kinda silly, considering the shoe was on the other foot two expansions ago.

Maybe they wanted to make it ironic, I don't know. But I do know this, this part of the video made me so very angry.

Jaina was a wise mage, she was very kind and always wanting to learn more but she was also very strong. She suffered a lot and somehow she always ended up doing what was right, I even consider the Purge of Dalaran a necessary action for her(maybe not as violent as the one that took place, and not called the "purge" >_>). She always knew what decision was best, and the Horde were a threat that needed to be dealt with, especially Garrosh. And she knew that.

But tell me... why is it that even though Garrosh is dethroned, his "true" horde dismantled, and vengeance for her people achieved... she still wants the Horde dead.

Once again maybe this is my slightly biased point of view telling me that she shouldn't still be angry. I mean, they killed EVERYONE she ever cared for and then betrayed her again after she trusted them. That IS pretty rough. But she was on the path to forgiveness and maybe even once more being a middle ground. But then they made her the morally evil person in the ending cinematic.

Now I could go on forever and make this post even LONGER about how much I love this character, but I will spare you all from wasting more time on my personal opinion then you already have.

I just want to know what everyone else thought of this sudden jump back to angry after 5.2, and to see if anyone else is a little disheartened by it.

TL;DR: Jaina going all angry after 5.2 again, what do you think of it?
She is suffering from seeing her work from the past few years going up in flames, her friends and close advisors killed, apprenticed murdered, realising she let her father die for nothing, and suffered a betrayal within her new kingdom.

To be frank, she needs a break before being put in charge of anything.
Why? Because they have Varian's son to play the "peaceful caster who wants the factions to co-exist" now. So, they gave Jaina a complete 180 personality shift, obviously leading up to her being a boss or some kind of encounter. Which is a pretty lame deal, if you ask me, because Jaina was, really, the only level-headed, female leader we had. There aren't a lot of powerful and compassionate females with such high ranking positions in WoW lore, so it kinda sucks to see what they did with Jaina's character.
She is suffering from seeing her work from the past few years going up in flames, her friends and close advisors killed, apprenticed murdered, realising she let her father die for nothing, and suffered a betrayal within her new kingdom.

To be frank, she needs a break before being put in charge of anything.


I realize all of that is really tough and she really should be mad. My main problem is just the fact that she has always been a wise character and made good decisions, but in this cinematic she is just so out of character, especially after that dialogue I linked.

I do agree she probably does need a nice little break from the conflict for awhile, that was something that always confused me about the idea of that prophecy or w/e it was.

"So we got someone that has been through a lot of hard times in her life, and suffered all these tragedies, and will most likely snap if something else happens... LETS MAKE HER OUR LEADER OF OUR VERY FRAGILE NEUTRAL ORGANIZATION! YAY!"
I realize all of that is really tough and she really should be mad. My main problem is just the fact that she has always been a wise character and made good decisions, but in this cinematic she is just so out of character, especially after that dialogue I linked.


To me it sounded like someone who didn't want a second Theramore.

But hey, some people just interpret things differently, she was likely just caught up in the whole thing.
@ Zae: I could understand where she was coming from, but that poisoned hissing didn't seem in character for her. It did seem like something, oh, a black dragon would say. Not saying that she's possessed or anything like that. It just reminds me of a certain brat whelping's "Auntie Onyxia."

Off topic, but I'm curious. Where did your helm come from? Arch, the Blizzard store...?
@ Zae: I could understand where she was coming from, but that poisoned hissing didn't seem in character for her. It did seem like something, oh, a black dragon would say. Not saying that she's possessed or anything like that. It just reminds me of a certain brat whelping's "Auntie Onyxia."

Off topic, but I'm curious. Where did your helm come from? Arch, the Blizzard store...?


Onyxia 4.0, could that be a thing?!

Also yes its from the store, it was a gift from a friend though.(I wanted a bloodwing but I wont complain XD)

09/12/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Ximothy
I realize all of that is really tough and she really should be mad. My main problem is just the fact that she has always been a wise character and made good decisions, but in this cinematic she is just so out of character, especially after that dialogue I linked.


To me it sounded like someone who didn't want a second Theramore.

But hey, some people just interpret things differently, she was likely just caught up in the whole thing.


That is a good point, but I just feel they could have gone about it so much better then just making her have a sudden flip to anger again. I really wish the cinematic was a bit more in detail, it seemed a bit rushed to me. Especially the Alliance only part, but they also had quiet a big part with Varians speech at the end in both.

Why? Because they have Varian's son to play the "peaceful caster who wants the factions to co-exist" now. So, they gave Jaina a complete 180 personality shift, obviously leading up to her being a boss or some kind of encounter. Which is a pretty lame deal, if you ask me, because Jaina was, really, the only level-headed, female leader we had. There aren't a lot of powerful and compassionate females with such high ranking positions in WoW lore, so it kinda sucks to see what they did with Jaina's character.


Ironically Anduin is also in my top 5 of favorite characters. Even before he had a personality and just sat in Stormwind, before I understood the lore I thought it was kinda silly that a kid was King in Vanilla :P

I really hope they aren't sending her down a dark path.
Ironically Anduin is also in my top 5 of favorite characters. Even before he had a personality and just sat in Stormwind, before I understood the lore I thought it was kinda silly that a kid was King in Vanilla :P

I really hope they aren't sending her down a dark path.


She just told Varian to slaughter the Horde leaders... Honey, she is catwalking down that dark path.
Jaina came across as the only smart person in the room. Seriously, the amount of absurd psuedo-political correctness in these forums is surprising. It's as if any time a character has a logical reaction and dispenses logical advice, completely in line with their allegiances, that requires serious and harsh action against the opposing faction, it's taken as some kind advice to commit a war crime. Her voice and delivery were great. She's disgusted by the notion of the Horde - the HORDE - continuing on. She should be. "Oh no, she said that her (nominal war time) general ought to dismantle the opposing confederation of peoples that have been constantly warring against the Alliance for resources and territory."

Give me a break. The direction they've taken Jaina in has been one of the few well done things on the Alliance side this expansion. Her character is about a hundred times better than it was pre-Theramore explosion. She wasn't a wise character before, she was dumb. Probably one of the dumbest, most cringe inducing characters Blizzard had made. Now? I actually look forward to her scenes. She's maybe the only Alliance character I can expect to actually state the obvious things that need to be said which elude the oblivious characters like Varian and Anduin.

Really, the sad thing is the direction they took Varian. Varian was a far better character when introduced, but it's like Blizzard decided to trade the stupid card from Jaina to him. Anduin has always been an awful character ever since they first started throwing actual development his way. He's the Wesley Crusher of WoW. Though he's almost redeemed in that capacity for the sole reason that it's made him a good foil for Wrathion, who's nothing but fun to listen to.
09/13/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Mystaerica
She just told Varian to slaughter the Horde leaders... Honey, she is catwalking down that dark path.

We must have watched a different cinematic, because I only heard her say "dismantle the Horde".


Yeah...there would have been no violence at all!
@Torvald(Going to minimize the amount of post before I actually start putting in anything, if someone is wondering what I am talking about they can just read your post in the first place :P )

Anyway, it comes down to a whole argument of morals in a way.

To me, the right decision is the one that involves less loss of life. It has gotten silly, the reasons that the Alliance and Horde fight now. This expansion clearly showed that they really just wanted to wrap it all up, but didn't really know how.

I know the whole WARcraft thing, but still. There is so many more battles out there, with people that can't be as easily negotiated with. Have you TRIED reasoning with an old god bent on chaos? It's like posting in YouTube comments!

If Varian had attacked the Horde leaders, most likely they would have fought back and many Alliance would have died too. On the other hand if he had enforced very strict rules and policies and what not and basically forced the Horde to obey; then there is still the possibility of loss of life. Not to mention all the Horde forces that were not present in the room at the time.

Maybe too many happily ending movies and stories has made me soft(although shouldn't the game's story be nice too? What would we have done now if Deathwing had blown up the planet, or maybe we were all scourge minions... actually that would be cool). But to me the smart decision is the one that avoids conflict and hatred as much as possible, we have a legion and giant tentacle-y monsters to fight. Let's not kill each other before we get there ;)
This has been bothering me to, but here is my weird theory, now i could be dead wrong. Jaina may be a possibility of a future Old God Vessel because she is more powerful than she is depicted in the game. Now if you wonder what I mean by "Vessel", here are some examples:

Neltharion aka Deathwing- Was part of the dragon aspects who held the power of the titans and was soon driven to madness by N'zoth.
Arthas- it has been said that Yogg Saron was involved with Arthas but was poorly expressed through Blizzards end.
Garrosh- His pride began to corrupt him and the Y'shaaraj added to this.

So it may be a possibility.

One thing for sure, she may be involved with breaking the truce between horde and alliance that was made with Varian and Vol'Jin because think about it, what is Warcraft without Red vs Blue?
Arthas- it has been said that Yogg Saron was involved with Arthas but was poorly expressed through Blizzards end.


Or perhaps Blizzard never intended that at all? Considering the Scourge and Faceless clashed with each other, I don't think they were involved that much.
you are also assuming that the alliance would just wipe the floor with the horde, varian could have factored the multiple casualties the alliance would have suffered even if they somehow managed to defeat the horde
@Torvald(Going to minimize the amount of post before I actually start putting in anything, if someone is wondering what I am talking about they can just read your post in the first place :P )

Anyway, it comes down to a whole argument of morals in a way.

To me, the right decision is the one that involves less loss of life. It has gotten silly, the reasons that the Alliance and Horde fight now. This expansion clearly showed that they really just wanted to wrap it all up, but didn't really know how.

I know the whole WARcraft thing, but still. There is so many more battles out there, with people that can't be as easily negotiated with. Have you TRIED reasoning with an old god bent on chaos? It's like posting in YouTube comments!

If Varian had attacked the Horde leaders, most likely they would have fought back and many Alliance would have died too. On the other hand if he had enforced very strict rules and policies and what not and basically forced the Horde to obey; then there is still the possibility of loss of life. Not to mention all the Horde forces that were not present in the room at the time.

Maybe too many happily ending movies and stories has made me soft(although shouldn't the game's story be nice too? What would we have done now if Deathwing had blown up the planet, or maybe we were all scourge minions... actually that would be cool). But to me the smart decision is the one that avoids conflict and hatred as much as possible, we have a legion and giant tentacle-y monsters to fight. Let's not kill each other before we get there ;)


The reasons for the Alliance and the Horde fighting haven't been silly. They've been downright mundanely logical. Resources, prosperity, survival. Things like the Old Gods and the Burning Legion come across as permanent fixtures that the characters should not expect themselves or their people to ever successfully resolve in their lifetimes, and in the meantime they've got a world to interact with mortal races vying for power and territory. I think most people would say the right decision is the one that secures the long-term future of the Alliance the best. Leaving the Horde intact (by which I mean allowing those factions to continue their own military alliance) seems extremely foolish.

Don't get me wrong. I know that Blizzard's writers tend to embrace the notion that characters who do the kinds of things Varian did are "right" and "good" and the ones the players should cheer for. And I know they view Jaina as "dark" and "misguided" or the like. It's just funny because Blizzard's villains tend to be the most sensible characters, and their heroes tend to be... well, not well done.
you are also assuming that the alliance would just wipe the floor with the horde, varian could have factored the multiple casualties the alliance would have suffered even if they somehow managed to defeat the horde


Y'know, I love the Horde, but between Varian's OP swords and Jania's OP magic, I'm not sure many of the Horde leaders would have been left standing.
Jaina came across as the only smart person in the room. Seriously, the amount of absurd psuedo-political correctness in these forums is surprising. It's as if any time a character has a logical reaction and dispenses logical advice, completely in line with their allegiances, that requires serious and harsh action against the opposing faction, it's taken as some kind advice to commit a war crime. Her voice and delivery were great. She's disgusted by the notion of the Horde - the HORDE - continuing on. She should be. "Oh no, she said that her (nominal war time) general ought to dismantle the opposing confederation of peoples that have been constantly warring against the Alliance for resources and territory."

I see it as similar to the distinction between Saruman and Gandalph in Lord of the Rings; the development direction I mean. Saruman is motivated by logic. Gandolph by his heart. Both have value in determining actions. In regards to Lord of the Rings, logically and by the numbers, Suaron should have won. It was by Gandolph's own words a fools hope to expect that Frodo and Sam could destroy the ring. But, despite the odds, Gandolph proved to be correct and Sauruman proved to be wrong.

The situation with Jaina's role in the Cinematic is closer to Saruman than Gandolph, in that it appeals to logic. And based on past experience there is only a slim chance that events will not repeat themselves. In the words of a wandering wizard, "only a fools hope."

I look forward to the story of the aftermath to the Siege. I suspect that will give a better idea of whether or not Jaina is right.
Did anyone try to compare her behavior to Varian as Lady Katrana? She tried to persuade him to sieze the moment, much like Wrathion pushed for. I feel she is trying to be an instigator with her new personality and I love it. The alliance needs more people willing to get what they want. Her darker personality is growing into an interesting story and for her to be raided for lewts? That's a poor excuse for people to accuse her for being a future boss for having darker intent.

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